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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 21, 2009 14:10:45 GMT -5
cke1st- I agree with you that not all ships should be 'super', this set will have some crazy stuff, but most of the ships and crew will be the useful kind that you talk about. Now that I know what you're talking about more, I think that we are more on the same page. Of course, on the other hand if you have too many straightforward ships then it's just boring. Stuff like this is bad, but you want to make it work. Neptune, 8 points, French Masts: 3 Cargo 3 Speed: L Cannons: 3S 3S 6L Abilities: It takes 2 hits from the same shoot action to eliminate this ship's L ranged cannons. Ramming cannot eliminate this ship's masts.
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Post by admiralb on Aug 21, 2009 16:18:48 GMT -5
first off...that Neptune is really weird...I mean, yeah, I want to make it work, but a 6L gun is so incredibly useless anyway (except Smokepots and Targeting Scope)...I'd rather just see more ships with: "Masts on this ship can't be eliminated by shots unless the cannon roll is a 6." it already exists on a single ship, but could have potential on others. our group has already thought about copying it Jones to beef up the Dutchman or Guichuan...its scary...
Woel, you've got some interesting stuff there...not sure about some...
Hiro in theory sounds awesome, but if combined with the right abilities is entirely too powerful...if I'm only gone 1 turn and move all the way to the other side of the game area and blast the tar out of something the same turn, I think that might be too powerful...even the Sea Dragons aren't that powerful...they need fleet actions to do that...dump him on Baochuan and you can really mess with people...either "Limit" it or make it higher price...it has potential to be Davy Jones powerful...oh, and Runes of Loki is this guy's new friend (and Nemo's Plans too of course).
come on you're the rules guru...and you don't even word Raines like the existing ability that is similar? Holy Water...anyway, I'd love to be able to buy Holy Water to start the game, but I'm sure there's a reason they made it a UT...plus, if he is an invisble man like his flavor text says, why not do more with that? "Crew on this ship take up no cargo." or at least he shouldn't...maybe he has fog hopping...or smokepot type ability...
Haitian is interesting...although the second ability just make more Holy Water-eque..."Enemy abilities cannot affect this crew." that way he can't be cancelled, copied, etc. probably should be higher price though...since he can basically negate way better than a regular cancellor and Fear...maybe 7-8...its a ranged Cursed Jack, but no die roll needed...
Candice should probably be limited to only one ability...like DJC Jones...except she can pull from outside the game unlike Jones who can only pull from inside the game. pricing too, she should be at least 6...thank god you can't increase the roll result past 6...
Isn't Charlie the same as Holy Water? also, why no mention of equipment? is it to keep in line with other similar abilities? whatever...I like the idea, just not how its worded...
umm...why would I want to hijack a ship just to leave it as a sitting duck for the other ship that I just gave to my opponent? don't say "own" say command or control...own can been strewn to make people believe they actual own it and can take it home with them after the game...unless you're trying to go for that, in which case, it will only really be used with tiny junky ships.
Didn't we already have the discussion about permant increases and tracking?...McKay has an ability that has that potential...the Fruit part is a nice touch though...hmm...maybe we can use the counters idea for him?
Doubling crew affects...um...what does this mean exactly? can I move and shoot twice with only one captain? get +S+S for a helmsman? cancel from S+S? The use a once per turn, twice part seems ok to me though, since if acts more like a reroll for extra actions and how much would anyone complain about looking at 2 face down cargo per turn as opposed to one? the doubling is what bothers me...especially for the price...almost a free extra action for only 5 when used in combo with the right crew...oh, and the "Can use abilities on American ships." why specify that? maybe make them Ex-pat or just American since Canadian and Czech don't exist as factions in the game and probably never will.
Dex, I kind of enjoy...has some fun potential...and being Ex-pat means everyone can use him, yay! its Mercer, but you have to do something else first to be able to use the ability...I like him...I can even see a Pirate crew with this ability...a new Blackheart, maybe Hammersmith, or Headhunter...wait, use Havana Black, he needs a new version more than the others...
Kaylee is interesting...maybe just specify when I can use her ability...before I give the ship an action, at the end of the turn, after the ship moves, shoots, or what...or just increase her cost a bit, cause 4pts for free repairs or fire extinguisher is kind of cheap...she just gave me an idea...see after the rest of the comments...
interesting...Simon is a Doc with ransom...very interesting...I don't I would have done a combo like that myself, but I find it more playable than the current Docs...and he links...
...to this one...interesting, reminds me of my "Ancient Mariner" named Samuel Taylor...he had different results for all 6 numbers...3 bad, 3 good...it was amusing...so I think is is pretty amusin too...yours has Ransom, mine didn't, but did have some regular abilities like Oarsman, and...well, just read it...
English ~ 6pts ~ Samuel Taylor
Limit, Black Mark, Fear, Musketeer, Oarsman. This crew's Fear ability also affects your ships. At the beginning of each of your turns, roll a d6. On a 1, this ship cannot have its base move increased by any ability this turn. On a 2, eliminate one of this ship's treasure. On a 3, eliminate one of this ship's crew. On a 4, this ship gets +L to her base move. On a 5, this ship may be given an extra action. On a 6, this ship gains the Eternal keyword until the beginning of your next turn.
`I fear thee, ancient Mariner!/I fear thy skinny hand!/And thou art long, and lank, and brown,/As is the ribbed sea-sand.
`God save thee, ancient Mariner,/From the fiends that plague thee thus! - /Why look'st thou so?' -"With my crossbow/I shot the Albatross."
Ned is unusual...now we need to keep track of all the dead...something that hasn't happened out side of scenarios...but it could be interesting...do you really need that oarsman this turn to row home? you got it! what about that dead captain? yep, he can come back for that one turn...maybe you want to keep the captain, just kill someone else...
for the ones without factions...why not just make them Merc without the Ex-pat keyword? limits them to being used only on Merc ships or ships that can use "Any nationality." although I suppose since the one is "Hostile: England" you could make them French...
...hmm...I'm thinking I might have to do a few "Dead Like Me" based crew to be funny...
What might be interesting is if you could turn firemasts into gold! that'd be pretty hilarious: "Once per turn, you may remove one firemast from this ship and place a treasure coin from outside the game onto this ship worth 1 gold." requires cargo space and a firemast to work...kind of an 'outsider art' thing..."I do like your burnt, charred wood sculpture. How much for it?" <- as said in a snooty voice while wearing a monocle...
just to throw in a few other random "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" inspired pieces...
English ~ 10pts ~ HMS Emerald Ice [blockade-runner] 2 masts, 2 cargo, move L, 3L, 3L
This ship gets +L to her base move if she begins her movement within L of an iceberg.
And now there came both mist and snow,/And it grew wondrous cold:/And ice, mast-high, came floating by,/As green as emerald.
English ~ 11pts ~ HMS Mary Queen 3 masts, 4 cargo, move S+L, 4S, 3S, 4S
When this ship hits an enemy ship, place one of her crew face-down. That crew cannot use its abilities until the beginning of your next turn.
Oh sleep! it is a gentle thing,/Beloved from pole to pole!/To Mary Queen the praise be given!/She sent the gentle sleep from heaven,/That slid into my soul.
English ~ 11pts ~ HMS Gale 2 masts, 3 cargo, move S+S, 3S, 3S
Fear. This ship's Fear ability also affects your ships. If this ship begins its movement within L of a sea creature, she gets +L to her base move.
Like one that on a lonesome road/Doth walk in fear and dread,/And having once turned round walks on,/And turns no more his head;/Because he knows a frightful fiend/Doth close behind him tread.
yeah, yeah, it has speed, but really sea monsters and the negative Fear, small size, and low cargo help make up for it.
...and just to be funny...
English ~ 6pts ~ HMS Pilot 1 mast, 3 cargo, move L, 4S
Galley. This ship does not have to roll for effect when she uses a whirlpool.
Upon the whirl where sank the ship/The boat spun round and round;/And all was still, save that the hill/Was telling of the sound.
the set was pretty fun to make...half Cursed, half English for the "Rime" pieces...plus a few UTs like Lighthouse, and Reanimated Crew.
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Post by woelf on Aug 21, 2009 17:43:33 GMT -5
Woel, you've got some interesting stuff there...not sure about some... Most of them wouldn't really work for this set anyways - I was mostly just throwing the ideas out here. Also, the unusual wordings on some of them are intended more as a reflection of the character they're based on, not necessarily any exisiting rules or abilities. Sure, you might roll a one and be able to jump across the board like a sea dragon, but then again you're just as likely to roll a 6 and effectively lose the use of that ship for half the game. With the "average" roll being between 3 and 4, it's really not gaining much if anything over a more traditional super-fast ship, with the exception that nothing can affect it in any way while it's off the board. If this would actually go into a real set, at most I might add a restriction that the roll can't be modified, which would take care of rerollers and both Runes. With the roll restriction, I'd even consider dropping him a point or two because using the ability is a huge gamble - it might pay off, or it might backfire horribly. He's not worded like Holy Water because he's not meant to be Holy Water. Abilities that apply to the ship and not the crew (broadsides, firemasts, etc.) will still work just like normal. He's more like a doctor or even a Ghost Crew that protects crew against abilities rather than elimination. That fits the "invisible man" concept - if you can't see him, you can't target him directly. He is more powerful than a standard canceller, but he comes with a catch too - he affects your own abilities the same as enemy abilities. Basically, he creates a "null zone" where no crew abilities will work, almost like a weaker version of Cursed Captain Jack, but like Claude above ship abilities will still work just like normal within his area of effect. The reason copiers are mentioned specifically is almost purely thematic - you can't copy his ability if he's blocking you. By not being more general about all crew abilities, it also leaves the door open for him to be affected by crew abilities with a ranges greater than S - Cursed Captain Jack, for example, would be able to shut him down temporarily. The price of 5 is intentional, because most of the time her roll will be less than 6, with 3 or 4 being the "average". It's also important to note that she can only mimic a crew with the exact same cost as the roll, not any crew with a cost equal to or less than the roll. You also have to re-roll it every turn too - you can't just keep trying until you get one you want and then stick with it for the rest of the game. She acts more like one of those 3-point crew that allow you to bring in a whole new 2-point crew, except you don't get to keep the "new" crew for more than one turn. The intent behind Charlie is to provide backup against things that might target specific or even random crew. For example, if you had a canceller onboard but someone dueled it to death, you could reveal Charlie and have her "remember" that ability so you could keep using it. She'd also be very useful with a sac-captain, because then you could bump off any other crew you wanted to without fear of losing their abilities - at least as long as you kept Charlie around. I hadn't updated the text on this one in quite a while so maybe it could be worded a little better, but it's intended more of an ability to "upgrade" your ship. When it works, you basically switch ships with the opponent, but you sabotage your old ship in the process so they're left sitting stranded in a derelict while you can sail off in your new ship. "Owning" a ship is meant to refer just to which starting fleet it was part of, and doesn't hold any more meaning than capturing an enemy ship by towing it. It certainly doesn't mean that you get to keep the gamepiece after the game is over. True, but I wrote this one long before that discussion, plus it was never really intended for a real set either. But, as that discussion went on, the concept of things like diplomacy counters or accuracy counters came up, so anything like that would work for this ability. The part about Fruit is thrown in there entirely as a nod to the character, who happens to be allergic to citrus. Doubling the effect would refer to things with numeric values, so for example a +1 to boarding or +1 to cannons would become a +2 instead, or an ability that eliminated one crew with the first a hit would eliminate two instead. It wouldn't work on something like a captain because there's really nothing to double - the only way to shoot twice would be to move a second time, but he can't duplicate the necessary move action. The two action limit would also still apply, so it wouldn't do much good to use him on a SAT or Extra action crew, except maybe to make a second attempt if the first die roll failed. Of course, this ability in general would probably be a little too powerful and I'm sure people would figure out ways to really abuse it - I'd be extremely hesitant to include it in an actual set at any point cost. His nationality of Czech and McKay's Canadian are nods to the characters they're based on - if they would ever go into an actual set they would be switched to American and the part about using them on American ships would get dropped. This one was probably my favorite of the whole bunch. Not only does he provide a new way to gain an extra action, he also makes boarding much more useful. Making him unpinnable allows you to take full advantage of the extra action too - he'd be a great crew to take on ships that can't be shot within S, because you could go charging in with a ram (hopefully taking out a mast), pick off a crew with the boarding, and then immediately move away and ram again, or pull just beyond S and open fire. I don't think a specific timing is really necessary, since you already can't give one action in the middle of another. I wouldn't put her cost any higher than 5, because shipwrights in general are so rarely used already, and if your ship is getting hammered and/or set on fire, getting back one "free" mast on your turn isn't likely to help much. Since Simon's character is a doctor on the show, I couldn't think of any better ability than the existing doctor ability, but I also wanted to set him apart. Fortunately, there was already a perfectly good, and highly thematic answer - Ransom. At 2 points he's definitely worth having around, just as long as you can keep him out of enemy hands.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 21, 2009 19:26:48 GMT -5
You know what would be a fun ship?
Mast: 1 Cargo: 2 Speed: L+L Cannon: 4L Abilities: Extended Range. You may double the range of this ship's cannons, but you must roll a 6 to hit. This ship can't move and shoot using the same action.
Points would probably be around 7.
Just imagine having a ship that hit from 4L away! Now that is a sniper. Especially since it has to sit in place. Just give it a crew like Santana and a world hater.
Sniper ships are so much fun to play with.
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Post by admiralb on Aug 22, 2009 0:37:46 GMT -5
haha! the sniper ship is kind of funny...I did a link set once that when you put him on his ship you have Extended Range and "double range" it was HMS Trebuchet and a new version of Carbon Charlie...it was very odd, but had a 4L hit range with only its front cannon, the others were 4S...still, 4S is pretty far... oh, and your 7pts is close enough...since "double" is almost worthless and Extended is at most 1pt...you could knock even more points off by giving it something like "This ship cannot carry crew." that way you have to use fleet actions to get a move and shoot no matter how hard you try...although a 7pt L+L movement ship will of course see use as a treasure runner...maybe dump as much cargo as possible...like make it 0-1 just to mess around...I say this mainly because I don't like ships having abilities that say that you can't do a specific thing with the ship...inevitably someone will find a way to do it...and yes, we've had a player cancel "Cannot carry crew" once and run El Raton with an explorer just to mess with the rest of us...it was incredibly pointless, but its just asking for people to mess around...by making it 0 cargo, you're basically saying get linked crew or go home...maybe make it a nation that has no linked to All captain...like France or England...cause we all know and love Almirante Carlos Pavon y Miranda and Captain Jack Sparrow.
...now that I think about it, why even bother making it so it can't move and shoot? is one shot fro 4L away requiring a 6 to hit really going to mess with the balance of the game? unlikely...most ships can deal with one shot...plus, if that ship really mattered you would have placed it more strategically anyway (like in the fog or behind and escort).
I would not be too upset about seeing a ship like that...I'd actually like to see a few more snipers that had real potential, but weren't game-breaking...hmm...maybe a sweet flotilla with that combo? that'd be interesting...call Watchtower or something...America does need another flotilla...
oh, and Woelf, getting back a mast when you're on fire, is a very big deal, it means getting home safely or burning to death on your doorstep...I've seen it happen, Draconum took on a 6-mast junk and if that junk hadn't put out its firemast it would have been toast...I've also seen small 2-masters burn up less than a turn away from home...most of the time if a ship isn't finished off is because its on fire and there are more pressing matters to get to, like someone else just swiped a ton of gold from an island and are about to win...they let the burning ship rot and run after the new ship...I know, it seems stupid, but small ships can and most of the time are the most annoying...I plan on proving it this weekend with the cheapest 'gosd-ship' ever built...18pts total! oh, America, how I love thee!
Dex is a very cool crew...he could just have "This ship cannot be pinned" and he'd be useful...add the extra action possibility on top and he's great...I also like the balance of Ex-pat with it, it intrigues me...you can fight 'til your heart's content, but you are not coming home because of it...very Mercenary...
I'm not sure why you wouldn't just say "Enemy abilities cannot affect this crew" on Haitian...what would be the point of Jack shutting him down? they are both doing pretty much the same thing...Jack just turns off everything, Haitian on and within S of his own ship...I guess it really only comes down to how you want it to interact with Holy Water type stuff and what cancels what...I'd still say make it simpler and say "Enemy abilities cannot affect this crew." makes him a bit more powerful, plus he can't be copied...the only way of shutting him down is really MI's (do you really want him susceptible to Voodoo Doll? that just doesn't seem right for some reason.)...and really isn't that kind of interesting...Piratically themed at least...a Haitian dude that can only be messed with by islands (short of sinking the ship)...some crazy voodoo goin' on! (plus the idea of specifically calling out cancel and copy in other abilities just doesn't sit right with me, it seems to be adding some more difficulties on top of the ones that exist and making new abilities that are almost the same as old abilities...just sayin').
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Post by buckland on Aug 22, 2009 12:13:26 GMT -5
In fact, I've done too much. Cke1st, Buckland, I'd love for you guys to post some actual stats/abilities so that we can better work with you and not against you. I'm not working against anyone, nor do I feel anyone working against me. I think woelf said it better then me. Its all about striking that balance. When I say an ability is "silly", I just mean its hard to play. As said, HMS Dreadnought is a good example. Doesn't necessarily have to be a hoist or a scorpion ship. I just like ships, abilities etc....that are playable. There's nothing wrong with the odd powerful ability, crew or ship as long as it works. Yes Vlad, it can all be play tested, so no problems. And you don't need me to post any stats/abilities. There are already enough great ideas from everyone. It will be hard to select what we are going to use as it is. Anyway, what are we precisely aiming at? Are we looking to improve on what we already have from WK? Or are we going to add a lot of new stuff? For example, updating and tweaking existing stuff (like reducing the point cost on HMS Dreadnought, why waste a good ship). Or giving the Americans some decent crew. Also, how do we stand with copy rights?
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 22, 2009 13:02:38 GMT -5
I'm not working against anyone, nor do I feel anyone working against me. I think woelf said it better then me. Its all about striking that balance. When I say an ability is "silly", I just mean its hard to play. As said, HMS Dreadnought is a good example. Doesn't necessarily have to be a hoist or a scorpion ship. I just like ships, abilities etc....that are playable. There's nothing wrong with the odd powerful ability, crew or ship as long as it works. Yes Vlad, it can all be play tested, so no problems. And you don't need me to post any stats/abilities. There are already enough great ideas from everyone. It will be hard to select what we are going to use as it is. Well personally I just wanted to make sure that we made stuff that appealed to you as well, because it seemed like you weren't too big of a fan of overly complicated stuff. And I agree, playable stuff is always the best. : ) Now that this is all fixed up... We're aiming at a bit of both, to me at least. I know that we're trying to give factions stuff that they need, but we're also trying to add new stuff at the same time. Woelf has commented on this before, but updating and tweaking existing stuff is opening a can of worms. Because then, we'd see Banshee's Cry increase, San Cristobal, HMS Titan, and then ships would reduce in cost. It seems like a lot of work personally, and even then there'd be controversy. As for copyrights, I have no idea. I believe that is why we aren't going to make any Jack Hawkins crew or the like.
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Post by lord_denton on Aug 22, 2009 13:24:11 GMT -5
As long as we don't sell this for personal profit, and shy away from the Wizkids big shots like Jack Hawkins, Calico Cat, etc. we should be fine. Another benefit of a Historical set; nobody owns history.
Also, what we do also depends on production, which is basicaly dead at the moment.
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Post by cannonfury on Aug 22, 2009 13:32:02 GMT -5
wasn't there a pirate named Calico Jack Rachams (i think i got the last name wrong), anyway he was the one who made the pirate flag used in DPotC
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Post by lord_denton on Aug 22, 2009 13:38:48 GMT -5
There was, but Calico Cat and him are clearly two different people. I thought it was Barbossa's flag used on all the ships for DPotC? Maybe Disney just had Barbossa rip off Rackham's flag, to save on costs.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 22, 2009 13:40:38 GMT -5
Rackham, close enough though. And yes there was, obviously it was the name for Calico Cat. :edit: ninja'd by Lord Denton. Actually I think that a lot of the big name pirate flags were stolen for the movie.
Though, I think it would be cool if there were more crew like Victor de Alva and Luis Zuan- Related to big name characters, but not actually them.
So you could have some dude who was the son of Robert Blake who goes to fight, or some dude who used to fight for Blackheart or something of that sort.
'Pirates of the Spanish Main: Lineage and Legend' would actually be a fantastic name for a set if we were to go that route.
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Post by admiralb on Aug 22, 2009 14:57:08 GMT -5
actually Lineage and Legend sounds kind of cool...I'll have to see what I have lying around...I did once have ship's referencing Roberto Santana's daughter...I'll see what else I've got...oh, and she hates Cursed...on a return voyage from the Caribbean her ship was attacke by Cursed monsters, she was the sole survivor when the ship put into port, the monster followed her and destroyed the port which was Roberto Santana's home...he didn't die in the story, but also hates the Cursed now more than any other faction.
more later...
PS. Captain Yarborough of Yarborough's Revenge and Le Morte de Yarborough...he was never made, we need him! maybe pull crew names from existing ships and back-link...has some potential.
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Post by lord_denton on Aug 22, 2009 15:01:05 GMT -5
Are we still deciding whether it will be a historical-based set or not? I think either of those ideas are fine, but we need to get a sense of direction...
Also, I think we need more threads. This one keeps on getting bigger and bigger, and it will be hard to find anything we need.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 22, 2009 15:21:46 GMT -5
Personally, I think that it was decided that it was going to have some historical stuff in it, but it would be a lot like Pirates of the Spanish Main- Has a historical setting with some historical characters, but also some fictional characters and a hint of supernatural. This is what I would personally like to see.
I'd also like to propose "Lineage and Legend" as the title. If this is actually what people want it to be, then I will create a new thread for brainstorming for that.
-Vlad
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Post by admiralb on Aug 22, 2009 15:29:39 GMT -5
a new thread wouldn't hurt...we can decide which crew need "decendants"
...so is Victor de Alva and Luis Zuan coming back? or we making completely new crew? of course the Pirates have the least in-game familial connections...they are pirates...maybe Cannonball Gallows has a kid...hmm...wait for new thread...
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