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Post by cannonfury on Aug 16, 2009 16:39:23 GMT -5
i think that that flavor text sounds a bit like eternal, but i like the ability, its cool
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Post by admiralb on Aug 17, 2009 13:22:47 GMT -5
I do like me the Ghost Ships...they may not be the most useful, but they are some of the most fun...I think I've tried doing ghost ships for the Big 6...England actually has more than I'd expect...France, not so much...America had a bizarrely interesting one...a ship that was built to haul California gold back to the eastcoast, but had to be built inland and towed to the sea for whatever reason; it was never delivered and found later in the middle of the desert...really weird story, but so fun! called Prospector...Spain got one that was similar in story, but different in ability and type.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 17, 2009 13:42:08 GMT -5
So what does everyone think? A cycle of Ghost ships would kick some serious butt and would be a lot of fun, and would definitely get back to the roots of the game's mythos, I think.
I'm all for them. A purely historical set is boring in my opinion, this adds a little spice.
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Post by woelf on Aug 17, 2009 14:48:35 GMT -5
I see the problem here, you were judging it more as a support ship and I was judging it was a main gunship. That's where the divide was. Though to be fair, the Conquistador couldn't keep up with the Deliverance. Both ways really have to be considered, because sooner or later it'll get used for both - especially at such a relatively low cost. Even the larger, more expensive ships that are typically the primary in a standard game can see use as a backup if the built total goes up a little. Pricing abilities on a ship-by-ship or crew-by-crew basis would create a logisitical nightmare and could really throw off game balance. Many point costs would start to seem even more arbitrary, and you could even start to see ships that were "fudged" to be better/cheaper than others just because someone liked it (or the nationality) better. However, believe it or not there actually are a few abilities already in the game that scale based on the number of masts on a ship. The "eliminate two masts with each hit" ability is one of them, but I don't recall the others. The "+1 for each ship within S" ability wasn't one of them, but probably should have been. A cost of 8 or 9 points would have made La Repulsa much more playable. Also, the next time you play a deathmatch game, try hooking up a flotilla behind El Garante. That'll give you enough firepower to make even a 10-masted ship think twice about getting too close. That sounds reasonable, although I'd still recommend a few rounds of testing just in case. I was looking through some old stuff, and found this: El Conquistador. 6 points, Spanish (by Woelf) [Common] Masts: 2 Cargo: 3 Speed: X Cannons: 6S 6S Abilities: Ghost Ship. This ship cannot carry crew. Once per turn When this ship is given a move action, roll a D6: the result is equal to the number of S-segments in this ship's base move. One of the first ships to scour the Americas for treasure, El Conquistador was cursed by Quetzalcoatl and vanished for over a century. She still displays an allegiance to Spain, but no mortal man will dare set foot on her decks to learn her true intentions.This would be a lot of fun to have. I think that we should have a cycle of one Ghost ship for each faction. That'd be fun, I think. I'd almost forgotten about that one! Thanks for bringing it back up. Since this set is now leaning heavily toward stickers, this ship is practically a slam dunk - I'm sure almost all of us have a few extra two-masted ships laying around that would make a suitable host for it. Eternal would fit with it thematically, but with three abilities already I think it has more than enough. That being said, it brings up an interesting thought - what if the Ghost Ship keyword had Eternal built-in? It would certainly make a lot of those smaller Ghost Ships more useful, although the big ones could be problematic - Guichuan and CC Deliverance in particular. Then again, both the Cursed and Pirates already have easy access to Eternal crew, so they really wouldn't be gaining much. Just something to think about...
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Post by woelf on Aug 17, 2009 14:57:34 GMT -5
So what does everyone think? A cycle of Ghost ships would kick some serious butt and would be a lot of fun, and would definitely get back to the roots of the game's mythos, I think. I'm all for them. A purely historical set is boring in my opinion, this adds a little spice. We wouldn't necessarily need one for every nation, but just a few here and there might be nice. FWIW, I've never been completely sold on the idea of it being a 100% historical set either. That's not to say having a ton of "fantasy" stuff is a good thing, but there's no reason we can't have a little of both. Even most of the well-known historical sailors had superstitions, legends, and myths they believed in.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 17, 2009 15:30:59 GMT -5
For pricing individually-fair enough, I see what you mean there.
The Conquistador is a lot better at 13 points after doing a run-through. When it hit, it hit hard. But when it didn't, well let's just say that it was a waste of 13 points plus crew. One time I rolled two 1's in a row! That wasn't too good, haha, causing the ship to revert to rank 3 cannons.
I like the idea of giving all Ghost Ships the keyword Eternal.
By the way, I was thinking. What if there was a rule that if there was no gold in the battle, there could be no home islands, thus meaning that Eternal ships would stay dead? That's one of the big things in deathmatches, and although it would nerf Eternal ships that way, too be fair they were way to good for them anyway.
I agree with your statement on having a little of both. Even Revolutions, the most "historical" set, had the Devil's Maw and a Ghost Ship.
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Post by woelf on Aug 17, 2009 16:20:44 GMT -5
I like the idea of giving all Ghost Ships the keyword Eternal. Thinking about it even more, a neat thematic twist on it might be that it only works while the ship is "ghostly". That way, if an opponent managed to catch you while docked at an island or while towing something they could take your ship out for good without needing a canceller. That's entirely up to the person running the game, since deathmatch isn't part of the standard rules. I don't like the idea of nerfing Eternal entirely in DM, but it definitely needs some sort of adjustment or it gets too powerful. I kinda like having it work only the first time.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 17, 2009 17:02:23 GMT -5
Ooh, I like that, I like that a lot actually. We should definitely go for that.
I don't play deathmatch too often and for good reason, it's pretty unbalanced. I like the idea of it working the first time, or the Eternal ship getting worse each time it comes back.
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Post by cannonfury on Aug 17, 2009 21:19:15 GMT -5
when i play deathmatch normally the eternal ships can stay in the game but when the only ships you have left are eternal, you are out of the game
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 17, 2009 23:49:54 GMT -5
In any case I want to stay clear of giving any non-Ghost Ship crew/ship the Eternal keyword.
Anyway, I was thinking:
Le Snobby (Placeholder!), 18 points, French Masts: 5 Cargo: 5 Speed: S+S Cannons: 3S 2L 2L 2L 3S Abilities: Cannonneer. Once per turn, you may reroll one of this ship's rolls, you may use either result. Once per turn when this ship hits an enemy ship at least 2 times, that ship may not be given a move action on her turn.
It's a sort of chainshot, and this ship is able to reroll a bunch of times.
HMS Crumpet (Placeholder), 18 points Masts: 5 Cargo: 5 Speed: L Cannons: 2S 2L 2L 2L 2S Abilities: Once per turn at the beginning of each of your turns, roll a d6. On a 5 or 6, this ship may be given the same action twice. This ship gets +1 to her cannon rolls against Spanish and French ships.
Point costs are a bit arbitrary. Thoughts?
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Post by admiralb on Aug 18, 2009 0:23:43 GMT -5
"Crumpet" first...haha...anyway, sounds very Trafalgar-esque to me..."+1 against Spanish and French." clearly has some connection...maybe find a nice ship from the battle that this can represent...hang on, I've got a pile of 'em around here...Temeraire maybe? Royal Sovereign (although I prefer that be more on the speedster or defensive side). points seem ok; looks a lot like Titan stat-wise, abilities add up to about the same...so it could have the same cost...formula-wise...
[(5 masts + 5 cargo)/2] + 2 (for L movement) + 3.33 (for cannon ranks) + 1.5 (cannon ranges, only for the L's) + 3 (SAT) + 3 ("+1 against") = 17.83 rounded up to 18...seems fine...
"Snobby" is more difficult to judge...since it has two "newish" abilities...
[(5 masts + 5 cargo)/2] + 2.8 (1.4 for each S movement) + 3 (cannon ranks) + 1.5 (.5 for each L-range cannon) + 2 (Cannoneer) = 14.3 so far...new abilities...the "Chainshot-esque" I'm guessing at 2pts (based on the Chainshot crew, but since it still eliminates masts but requires two hits sounds reasonable) so 16.3...lastly the other one I'd say should be 4pts (based on Gold/Turner from F&S and regular reroller, but since this is only "once per turn" it should be cheaper than 8, but more than 3)...so 20.3...and its French, so rounded to 20 would probably be more appropriate...but as you said you were kind of arbitrary...new abilities are tought to judge...its late, I'm bored, I felt like trying to figure it out...don't sue me!
here's one of my own I kind of like...
English ~ 19pts ~ HMS Valiant 5 masts, 5 cargo, move L, 3S, 2L, 2L, 2L, 3S
Cannoneer. This ship gets +1 to her cannon rolls against forts. The first successful hit each turn against a fort removes two cannons instead of one.
I really liked the idea of the Hancock in RotF with its monster hunter ability, so I modified to for "fort-breaking." Its a fun idea, limited use though, but still it shines when you need to kill them forts...if we brought forts back, I'd suggest incorporating more fort killing ships...
I made a linked crew for it too...
English ~ 6pts ~ Admiral Augustus Keppel ~ Link - HMS Victory, HMS Valiant
Loyal: England. Give this ship a shoot action, but do not roll any die. Instead all friendly ships that are given a shoot action within L of this ship may fire as if they had the Broadsides Attack keyword.
...the idea was put him on Valiant and use him when not destroying forts to enhance your other friendly ships...it may be undercosted, but I tried to make it reasonable based on other abilities that you had to give up actions to use (like "Screaming" Mimi, Mycron or to a lesser extent like Santanna)...I can see him being 8pts though...like Papa Doc/Low/Atkinson...but more like Mycron since he's only helping your ship and not directly stealing from your opponent like Low.
...make you guys think during the night...I may be evil...sorry.
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Post by woelf on Aug 18, 2009 9:10:33 GMT -5
when i play deathmatch normally the eternal ships can stay in the game but when the only ships you have left are eternal, you are out of the game That could be a bit harsh if someone's entire fleet was Eternal. Even if only half of their fleet was eternal, it would be too easy for an opponent to just ignore the Eternal ships completely and pick off just the non-Eternals for a quick win. It might work better if the player is out once each of the Eternal ships has been sunk at least once, or if one or two keep getting sunk over and over several times when the total number of sinkings equalled the number of ships in the original fleet. Le Snobby (Placeholder!), 18 points, French Masts: 5 Cargo: 5 Speed: S+S Cannons: 3S 2L 2L 2L 3S Abilities: Cannonneer. Once per turn, you may reroll one of this ship's rolls, you may use either result. Once per turn when this ship hits an enemy ship at least 2 times, that ship may not be given a move action on her turn. It's a sort of chainshot, and this ship is able to reroll a bunch of times. With that many different roll-based abilities, you might be better off just giving it the same ability as Sir Rupert Hargreaves. Some players have enough trouble already telling the difference between a cannoneer and a standard reroller, so having a similar combination here could cause even more confusion. Plus, rerollers in general are much less useful to ships with low-ranked cannons than to ships with higher ones. This ship would actually be better if you bumped all of the cannons up one notch to 3 and 4 ranks and then dropped the cost a bit. As an added bonus, that would make it less likely to become yet another one of the big, powerful 5-masted gunships with great cannons and a useful ability - honestly, I think most of the nations have more than enough of those already. Other than the cannon bonus and the minor technicality about the type of second action it can be given, this one is basically just the HMS Titan. I know it's semi-historical for England and France to have a bunch of large warships, but like I mentioned just above, in the game at least it seems that most nations already have more of those than they really need. Despite their differences in abilities and stats, the ones already in the game all tend to look alike in terms of how they play and all use the same basic formula: 1) Load them up with a captain, a helmsman, and an additional action generator 2) Zip across the table to the nearest enemy ship and blow it out of the water 3) Repeat as necessary. At this point, I think any new 5-masters (and to a lesser extent even 4-masters) really need to fit a unique role to make them a worthwhile addition to the game. Think of ships like El Neptuno, Aberdeen Baron, and the Spanish Morning Star - they're all 5-masted ships, yet they completely break out of the boring old monster gunship mold. I made a linked crew for it too... English ~ 6pts ~ Admiral Augustus Keppel ~ Link - HMS Victory, HMS Valiant Loyal: England. Give this ship a shoot action, but do not roll any die. Instead all friendly ships that are given a shoot action within L of this ship may fire as if they had the Broadsides Attack keyword. 6 points is probably just fine for that ability, because you're effectively spending 12 points to use it (Keppel + his ship). Regardless, this is an ability I personally would never use, although that has far more to do with Broadsides Attack than your crew idea. I have never liked the "all or nothing" aspect of Broadsides Attack, and avoid using it entirely on anything with more than 3 masts - it's just too risky. It may sound cool to be able to blast a ship to smithereens with a single die roll, but I'd much rather fire all of my cannons individually and at least guarantee doing some damage than to miss completely and get hammered in return.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 18, 2009 11:45:48 GMT -5
For the French ship-Hadn't thought of using the Hargreaves ability. Will include that, and will reduce the cannons.
For the English-The problem with them is that's all they really have. I guess that you could go this route:
HMS Scone, 15 points Masts: 5 Cargo: 7 Speed: L Cannons: 4S 5S 5S 5S 4S Abilities: Musketeers on this ship lose their abilities and gain the keyword Marine.
So if you wanted to, you could have a Helmsman and a bunch of Marines-at least 3 or 4. I'm leaving it up to the player to figure out how to fit as many Marines as they want. The flavor text could reference some sort of training ship or whatnot.
Also Woelf, never got your response to this ship, but I figure that it will be about the same as with the ships above. My favorite part of the ship is the cancel within L ability, so I figure that I could drop the "+S if you have a Captain" part and keep the Cancel portion.
San Juan Nepomuceno, 21 points Masts: 5 Cargo: 6 Speed: L Cannons: 2S 3L 3L 3L 2S Abilities: This ship gets +S to her base move if she has a captain crew aboard. Once per turn, one ship/crew within L can't use its abilities this turn. The owner of the ship/crew may remove 2 gold pieces from his/her home island or eliminate 2 crew on that ship to ignore this ability. (The choice must be a legal one)
Or you could go this route: Nuestra Señora de la Concepción, 21 points, Spanish [Rare] Masts: 5 Cargo: 10 Speed: L Cannons: 3S 3S 3S 3S 3S Abilities: Galleon. Treasure Ship. This ship does not require a linked crew to be played. Nuestra Señora de la Concepción, or "Cacafuego", is one of Spain's most glorified Treasure Ships, as its hull allows it to give more riches to Spain than other treasure fleets combined. Because of this, it is rumored that Sir Francis Drake has his eyes on this vessel.
This is a ship I made for one of my sets. It's a beast, but tons of fun to play with, especially with some of the Spanish crew there are nowadays! Very enjoyable, and something that the Spanish always should have had.
And here's a 4 mast ship that I've been having a lot of fun with lately: -Insert name here-, 11 points Masts: 4 Cargo: 8 Speed: S+S Cannons: 5S 5S 5S 5S Abilities: All crew on this ship start face-up. You may subtract 1 from any gold piece on this ship to turn one of this ship's crew face down. Face down crew on this ship take up no cargo, but when revealed take up a cargo spot.
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Post by cannonfury on Aug 18, 2009 12:00:52 GMT -5
with the last ship you have, her name could be something like, La Corona del Mar, but i have a feeling that its been used before the abilities a bit strange but i can see how that can be incorperated into the game
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 18, 2009 12:21:38 GMT -5
Actually, the name hasn't been used before, so that's good.
The ability is a bit weird, but if you need a couple extra cargo spots, you can pay gold to get a few extra cargo spaces. In all, not too bad of a deal, even if you never use the ability, since you're getting 8 cargo spots anyway! You lose a little element of surprise but not that big of a deal.
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