New Crew/Ship/Ability Brainstorming

[admiralb]

I suppose the actual model choices depends on time period and such...or faction, or whatever...America should get a 4-mast schooner, they are practically king of schooners...plus the 4-mast schooner have a certain elegance about them...

...are we taking 52 actual game pieces, or 52 "cards?" as in card numbers...so you could have more crew/ships depending on if/how crew are put onto the cards, multiple crew on a card could give a few extra spots back for ships...

...I think since rarity won't matter just two two double crew cards per nation and open a few spots up for more ships, UTs, equipment (double equipment cards maybe?).

other than that, I like the break-down, vlad...I always assumed it'd end up being something like that anyway...its just no one had posted it yet...I think we may need another thread for that aspect...the actual break-down and maybe a new poll...like vote on what kind of break-down you want to see...not sure how that'd work though...maybe vote on what specific ship types...schooners, regulars, junks, galleys, etc.

if I had to pick; 5-mast regular, 4-mast schooner, 1-mast galley...although it does really depend on theme, time period, production cost, if we're having rarities, and such. not sure if we should make...depending on those: 3-masters - full-square or w/ bow-sprit...bow-sprit is usually common, full-square is usually uncommon...2-master similar - blockade-runner uncommon and regular is common...we could even go galley, junk, or one of the many others, but probably just stick to most normal for now...(not that 3 and 2 mast junks and galleys aren't cool).

I should stop talking...we need another thread...I think...

[vladsimpaler]

@ Denton-

Well, since you started up the whole thing, I just figured. And don't worry about it, I don't have a life either.

So then, let's think about this. 5 ships and 5 crew then? That actually almost works out better. We could have a portrait card (if you want), then 2 common named crew to a card. And 1 of each ship type.

But I kind of liked having 6 ships. Maybe 2x 4 mast ships? Or even 2x 5 mast ships? That seems kind of cool to me.

Maybe Spain and America could get 2x 5 mast ships, while the other nations get 2x 4 mast ships. That will help even out ratios for 5 mast ships.

@ Admiralb-
This is true, Americans love their schooners. What would people say if America got 1x 5 mast ship and the rest are schooners? The only problem is die cuts, just for them. Most other nations rarely even use schooners, besides Pirates that is.

[lord_denton]

admiralb

You are on the right track, if we can condense the crew normaly on a portrait to double-sided cards, more slots for other crew/ships open up. The portrait cards were a huge waste of space, to be honest.

@vlad

I think that the community seems to have better ideas and concepts than I have. Thus, I am very open to change.

Don't worry, I think there is worse than being interested in a game like this. Infact it proabably is healthier for the mind in some aspects...

Also, feel free to create new threads, I don't have to pay for more bandwidth to do so. I myself get claustrophobic with huge threads with lots of ideas and concepts like this get so large.

[admiralb]

true...although that's where the whole distribution comes in...maybe America, Pirates and Spain get 4-mast schooners, but England and France get something else...like two 5-masters (since their navies were bigger and more built for fighting). something like

5-masters (regular): 1 Pirate, 2 English, 1 Spanish, 2 French, 1 American
4-masters (schooners): 1 Pirate, 1 American, 1 Spanish

that way it still seems balanced with 2 ships per nation out of the two largest sizes in the set...plus since the schooners will probably be faster, their speed could make up for the one fewer mast/cannon...just an idea...I could see it being similar for the rest of the set maybe, with 2-mast schooners...America, Pirate, Spain get 2-mast schooners, England and France get an extra 3-master...

...most of the best 4-mast schooners are in Revolution anyway, Oxford, Isabel, Neptune's Hoard...BC had a few like Intrepid, President was always fun. after that though, most weren't very special...besides Bonaparte...

just spit-balling...of course I think we should try to keep it even if at all possible...just making a case. for 4-mast schooners for all! ("They're so much better lookin' than the regular 4-masters;" plus aren't we over-saturated on regular 4-masters anyway with all those Value Boxes?).

[lord_denton]

True, we must keep things fair. Although giving America some schooners isn't going to tip the balance that much, the schooner keyword never seemed to change point costs anyways.

I find the OE Netunes Hoard, USS Oregon, and the F&S four mast schooners to be interesting. I don't really like three mast schooners (kind of ugly, maybe after I pulled all those horrible Lady Newports). I'm fine with two mast schooners, since smaller schooners seem to pop up in naval battles more than larger ones, and they aren't quite as ugly as three masters.

I love the four mast square-riggers (Brigs!)!

[vladsimpaler]

I'll make a new thread dedicated to splitting things up. Though I must say that I vehemently disagree with Admiralb.

Anyway, onto the new thread!

[vladsimpaler]

Was thinking about the Pirates today.

And was thinking that we should give them some awesome boarding ship or something.

Bloody Saber (Not sure of points.)
Masts: 5
Cargo: 4
Speed: L
Cannons: 2L 2S 2S 2S 2L
Abilities: When this ship declares a boarding party, you may give this ship a permanent -1 to her cannon rolls to give her +2 to her boarding rolls. You may eliminate one of this ship's crew to give her +1 to her boarding rolls. Whenever this ship wins a boarding roll, she may declare another.

Or we could go this route:

Conquistador, 10 points
Masts: 5
Cargo: 3
Speed: L
Cannons: 6L 6S 6S 6S 6L
Abilities: This ship gets +1 to her cannon rolls for every mast on this ship. Whenever this ship rolls a 1 during its shoot actions, eliminate a mast.

So it would have all rank 1 cannons to start out with, but soon enough then it'll be down to rank 4, then 5, then 6.

Just my thoughts. I think that Pirates should be a high risk, high reward, like they were originally. Sort of like black in MtG, they pay high prices to win.

[cannonfury]

i like that it no longer has one ship being a mega ship, it makes it seem like they are slowly aging and deteriorating

[admiralb]

Bloody Saber has a lot of text there...not sure about reducing stuff permanently like that...it goes back to the whole idea of "tracking" modified ship stats after being modified more than once...but it could just be something like: "At the beginning of each turn you may choose to give this ship gets -1 to her cannon rolls and +2 to her boarding rolls." hmm...that may not have turned out as good as I thought...the ability to kill one of your own crew for extra boarding bonus is genius...I like it...Blackheart would be having a field day with this...I can see it now: "I'll kill this crew for an extra action, I'll move shoot, ram, board and then kill my other crew for '+1 to my boarding roll.'" it could work...could be really fun with stuff like Nemo or Wraith..."I captured your crew and next turn I'm killing them for a boarding bonus to capture another of your crew!" evil! I love it! the continuous boarding parties sounds a bit too powerful...if done correctly you can already get 3 boarding parties in one action (Grappleshot, Board from S, regular ram board)...with extra actions, you can even do it again for 3 more! Six boarding parties in one turn is pretty insane as it is...throw in board after winning a boarding party you could sit there all day and pick ships apart with Arazure, Skuld, Fool's Hope...might be a bit powerful...if limited to "once per turn" I might be on board with that if its given out to in small amounts (Pirates and maybe one other faction only).

Conquistador is interesting...a bit like my "+S for each mast" but for shooting...I may have to try this out in the near future as a crew...has potential. and giving it the downside is perfect, very "Piratical." Throw Hammersmith and Tia Dalhma on board and this can be a very fun ship.

[woelf]

Aug 14, 2009 21:25:02 GMT -5 admiralb said:

Bloody Saber has a lot of text there...not sure about reducing stuff permanently like that...it goes back to the whole idea of "tracking" modified ship stats after being modified more than once...

I was going to say the same thing. Abilities that cause permanent changes should be avoided unless you also build-in a good way to track it. In fact, the need to track changes like that is one of the primary reasons why the rules for gold-modifying abilities were changed so that you no longer had to track the actual value of each individual coin.

Aug 13, 2009 23:05:21 GMT -5 vladsimpaler said:

Conquistador, 10 points
Masts: 5
Cargo: 3
Speed: L
Cannons: 6L 6S 6S 6S 6L
Abilities: This ship gets +1 to her cannon rolls for every mast on this ship. Whenever this ship rolls a 1 during its shoot actions, eliminate a mast.

So it would have all rank 1 cannons to start out with, but soon enough then it'll be down to rank 4, then 5, then 6.

This one would definitely be broken for that price. Sure it gets lousy as it takes damage and has only three cargo spaces, but a 10-point ship that starts the game with five cannons that miss on a roll of 1 would be abused beyond the point of silliness. 15 points would seem a little more reasonable, but even that might be a bit low. It would definitely need to be tested several times.

[vladsimpaler]

Okay, for the bloody Saber you could say, "Put a decay counter on this ship's deckplate, for each decay counter it gets -1 to her cannon rolls".

Which of course opens up a whole new route that I'd love to take:

"Sacrifice one of this ship's crew: Put a decay counter on target ship's deckplate within S. For each decay counter on a ship, it gets -1 to its cannon rolls."

"When this crew is revealed, put an accuracy counter on target ship's deckplate within S. For each accuracy counter on a ship, it gets +1 to her cannon rolls."

So there, new developments! Yay! ;D That's a good way of tracking developments, if you ask me.

And I agree with Admiralb, the extra boarding party should be a once per turn thing.

I also don't see how the Conquistador is broken.

Sure, you could have:

Conquistador, 10 points (18)
Captain Blackheart, 5
Helmsman, 2
Oarsman, 1
Oarsman, 1

Let's see what happens when any ship worth its salt attacks it:

San Cristobal will hit it at leas twice, if not 3 times. If the ship is hit twice, it goes to rank 3 cannons. Then of course there are cancelers, which can cancel the ability of the Conquistador.

It would be good if it had S+S move, if you wanted to make it more balanced you could give it S move.

I agree that it's powerful, but it's not that good.

Or, you could have:

Conquistador, 10 (20)
Captain, 3
Helmsman, 2
Tia Dalma (aka the biggest mistake design wise ever!), 5

It can only move the max of S+L a turn. Again, any gunship worth her salt WILL get the upper hand on it. Which is why I gave it only 3 cargo spots.

I will test it out a bit, originally it had more cargo, of course that was a big mistake. I will post my findings.

By the way, the gimmick I would love to try out is having more crew do things when they are revealed. We currently have stuff like Padre Francisco, but what about:

Joaquin Vega, 6 points
When this crew is revealed, you may cancel a shoot action from target ship within L. This ship ignores the first hit she takes each turn as long as she has all her masts.

[admiralb]

I've never really been big on the crew like Padre Francisco, but I can see the use...your new Vega though is quite interesting...although for an ability that can only be used once (unless you pull major combo-ing) I don't want to pay a whole lot...actually I'd like to see equipment that does stuff when revealed...more unique abilities...give them odd names, I don't know...there is some cool potential there...might have to go through my index and see what I have, if anything, that only works when revealed...

Conquistador has some serious fun to be had...whirlpools, Lord Mycron, Eternal, Shipwrights all gain something interesting out of it...too bad Pirates don't have a crew like Crenshaw/Vazquez...increase to L-range! evil...I think the point of Conquistador strategically is to make sure you get the first shot (using Mycron, Blackheart, whirlpools, etc.) otherwise it won't be able to hold its own later on without repairing, thus the Shipwright comment...throw in the Carpentry Tools Woelf posted in the other thread and there is really some fun to be had.

We've done odd little counters before for a scenario...at the beginning of the game everyone rolled a d6 for their ship and put it behind the ship as if it were a flotilla (but was only used for keeping track). At the beginning of each turn the player whose turn it was rolled a d8 and moved all ships with a corresponding number (on 7 the player to your left chose a ship, on 8 the player to your right). If any of the ships that moved could be given a shoot action they must. When a ship was sunk, the owner rolled a d6, if that number was not already being towed by the ship, that ship would respawn at the HI and get the new number as well as keep any it already had...so by the end we had ships carrying up to 6 die with them...we also gave out a special event that was a one time free pass that gave you the lowest d6 number that you didn't hae in case you missed the roll once...my ships almost always won...the Crushed Skull will eat your brains! carrying all 6 die and a free pass the last time we played...evil! so, it is possible to track things, it just gets difficult after a certain point, and try to make it so you can use dice as counters...since we all have tons of tiny ones lying around.

[woelf]

Aug 15, 2009 14:28:00 GMT -5 vladsimpaler said:

I also don't see how the Conquistador is broken.

Sure, you could have:

Conquistador, 10 points (18)
Captain Blackheart, 5
Helmsman, 2
Oarsman, 1
Oarsman, 1

Or, you could have:

Conquistador, 10 (20)
Captain, 3
Helmsman, 2
Tia Dalma (aka the biggest mistake design wise ever!), 5

It can only move the max of S+L a turn. Again, any gunship worth her salt WILL get the upper hand on it. Which is why I gave it only 3 cargo spots.

Don't forget to also factor in things like Jonah, Emperor Blackheart, Copiers, and Lord Mycron, not just the standard old sac-captain setups.

Being a mere 10 points makes it too easy to slip it into almost any fleet, and at that cost it doesn't even have to be the primary gunship. Just think of it being the *backup* to a monster ship like the Zeus, Harbinger, or Deliverance.

Two big things to keep in mind when designing is what the ability would cost all by itself, and what the ship would cost without any abilities at all. As written, this one would be comparable to the "+1 for every friendly ship within S" ability found on the El Garante and a handful of others. That ability costs around 7 or 8 points, which would mean that without its ability the Conquistador would cost a mere 2 or 3 points - definitely not right for a 5-masted ship, even one with all 6-rank cannons.

Testing (in several different games with and against different setups) may show that 15 points is too high, but I can tell you already that 10 is definitely too low. The potential for abuse is there, and players have proven time and time again that if that sort of potential exists, they will use it.


Also, being inferior to a loaded San Cristobal (which likely costs twice as much or more) really isn't a good argument against something being broken, because a good SC setup can get the drop on pretty much anything in the game.

[vladsimpaler]

Don't forget to also factor in things like Jonah, Emperor Blackheart, Copiers, and Lord Mycron, not just the standard old sac-captain setups.

Mhm, that's quite true. Copiers are a bit expensive though and rare.

Being a mere 10 points makes it too easy to slip it into almost any fleet, and at that cost it doesn't even have to be the primary gunship. Just think of it being the *backup* to a monster ship like the Zeus, Harbinger, or Deliverance.

I see the problem here, you were judging it more as a support ship and I was judging it was a main gunship. That's where the divide was. Though to be fair, the Conquistador couldn't keep up with the Deliverance.

Two big things to keep in mind when designing is what the ability would cost all by itself, and what the ship would cost without any abilities at all. As written, this one would be comparable to the "+1 for every friendly ship within S" ability found on the El Garante and a handful of others. That ability costs around 7 or 8 points, which would mean that without its ability the Conquistador would cost a mere 2 or 3 points - definitely not right for a 5-masted ship, even one with all 6-rank cannons.

The problem is, El Garante is way overcosted. Abilities should be costed on a ship to ship or crew to crew basis. El Garante is a Spanish 5 master that I occassionally even forget about because it's just so...useless. And for more evidence for my argument, one needs to look no further than the original useless ship, La Repulsa, a ship so bad that it makes other bad ships look good in comparison. It should have costed maybe 8 points. Not 14.

Testing (in several different games with and against different setups) may show that 15 points is too high, but I can tell you already that 10 is definitely too low. The potential for abuse is there, and players have proven time and time again that if that sort of potential exists, they will use it.

Then why not take the middle road and make it 13? Now it is splashable but not nearly as much. You can make a comparison of it to the OE La Resolucion, which has 1 less mast but no negative effects.

Also, being inferior to a loaded San Cristobal (which likely costs twice as much or more) really isn't a good argument against something being broken, because a good SC setup can get the drop on pretty much anything in the game.

Quite true, that's the only thing that came to my mind when I was typing.

[vladsimpaler]

I was looking through some old stuff, and found this:

El Conquistador. 6 points, Spanish (by Woelf) [Common]
Masts: 2
Cargo: 3
Speed: X
Cannons: 6S 6S
Abilities: Ghost Ship. This ship cannot carry crew. Once per turn When this ship is given a move action, roll a D6: the result is equal to the number of S-segments in this ship's base move.
One of the first ships to scour the Americas for treasure, El Conquistador was cursed by Quetzalcoatl and vanished for over a century. She still displays an allegiance to Spain, but no mortal man will dare set foot on her decks to learn her true intentions.

This would be a lot of fun to have.

I think that we should have a cycle of one Ghost ship for each faction. That'd be fun, I think.