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Post by cannonfury on Aug 10, 2009 21:48:47 GMT -5
vladsimpaler: yes i'm talking about the crew. if i had this crew for any nation, i would always have it in my fleet. 13 points sounds good because i could instead have 3 other ships instead of this, so it has to be less available
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Post by lord_denton on Aug 10, 2009 22:02:09 GMT -5
@vlad:Think about it. Griffin RotF is WAY undercosted, and is on borderline of being called broken (see review at the bottom of my post by darrin- the Minature trading database currently has the two versions confused, incase you are wondering). The only thing that saves him from being utter destruction is the fact that there are only a handful of them in existence, in the hands of collectors. I'm just afraid to release something that powerful(in my view at least) at such a cost, being so easy to get. It would allow the USS Constitution or Enterprise to chug along at L+S+S plus extra actions. www.miniaturetrading.com/im/showCardReview/review_id/2062
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 10, 2009 23:21:07 GMT -5
@ Cannonfury- Tested it out, and I agree that the sweet spot seems to be the 13-14 point range.
@ Denton- Now that I think about it...how about 8?
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Post by cannonfury on Aug 11, 2009 12:57:55 GMT -5
yeah, i try it out with the other nations with my friends and see how it goes for ythe others
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Post by lord_denton on Aug 11, 2009 13:14:36 GMT -5
@ Denton- Now that I think about it...how about 8? 8 sounds good to me.
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Post by admiralb on Aug 11, 2009 14:47:25 GMT -5
check the other ships that have the same ability as Griffin...it always comes around 7pts...any more than 8 and no one will use a crew with the ability..."+1 cannon rolls" is about 4 and "+S" as we know is about 2 because of helmsman, but since it can be combined with a helmsman, it bumps up to 3pts...to be even remotely "overpowered" it has to have a captain and helmsman so minimum 12pt ship to put it on and that's only captain, helmsman, Griffin-esque crew...no extra actions, no oarsman, no canellor...it can still be taken down easy if it goes against a really well done gunship...
...of course America doesn't have a ship/crew yet with the ability, so who says America wouldn't have to pay more for that ability than England or Pirate? or even Spain? they pay more for their 'extra action' on Enterprise than on Titan...not like it'll get used very much anyway, especially in games under 100pts...now, coming up with a crew to give the ability...that'll be interesting.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 11, 2009 15:03:46 GMT -5
cost sounds about right to me vlad...5pts to cancel from L, but it can be ignored by killing crew...sounds ok...a bit powerful, but interesting and if its in limited amounts like three or less game pieces it might be a nice asset to Spain or any other nation that gets it...maybe even pay gold to stop it...like a Parley on cancel...look to Parley for wording inspiration; closest thing I can think of. Odd, I must have skipped over this somehow...I actually like paying gold better, funnily enough. I think that this ability should be unique to Spain, they are the masters of canceling so it should stay that way. Since this will be the only ship with it, and since it takes up over half your build points, I can't imagine seeing it around too much. Good suggestion, I will check out Parley for wording. Thank you! Testing for it goes rather well, it's fast but still gets beaten up a lot if you don't know how to use it right. Never said you did, friend! I do think that you are right about Spain and France. I'm just saying that everyone (me included) needs to think about what we are doing for the factions that we don't play too much because our view of them might be a bit biased-personally, I wouldn't mind giving the British a La Manila 5 mast ship, and a Marques Miguel Antonio rare crew. That's a big one, yes rarity is pretty much meaningless as we're all getting the package deal. Great minds must think alike, yesterday I was pondering hostile and loyal keywords for ships! About a Griffin crew for the Americans: Even on the Enterprise, let's see here: Enterprise, 18 (30) Commodore Perry (the Griffin crew), 7 points Captain, 3 Helmsman, 2 It moves S+S+S+S, and has 5 rank 1 S range cannons, with a 33% chance of an extra action. Is it powerful? Sure. We need to evaluate the different factions, though. England has stuff like the HMS Swallow and the Titan that can benefit, America only has the Enterprise. Very few ships, if none at all, will benefit from this. Maybe the Blackwatch. I love that ship, by the way. That would move S+S+L, and have all rank 1, L range cannons. But still no extra action, and it is 28 points! Wait a second... "If this ship has a captain crew, once per turn, you may roll a d6. On a 5 or 6, this ship may be given the same action twice/may be given an extra action." Or "If this ship has a captain crew, whenever this ship rolls for an additional action, you may roll 2 dice instead of one/add +1 to that roll/may reroll it" ad nauseam. I think that abilities that require crew for America is an angle that we should visit.
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Post by cannonfury on Aug 11, 2009 15:44:44 GMT -5
most definitely
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 11, 2009 17:31:18 GMT -5
I also think that all American ships should get the 'Live Wood Hull' keyword I suggested, which ignores L range hits on a 5 or 6 and ignores S range hits on a 6. Probably at a discount. It would be maybe 4 points for other nations, but should be about 2 points for American ships. And probably only for tall ships, not for schooners.
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danomight
Ordinary Seaman
I'm on a boat!
Posts: 6
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Post by danomight on Aug 11, 2009 18:23:01 GMT -5
I also think that all American ships should get the 'Live Wood Hull' keyword I suggested, which ignores L range hits on a 5 or 6 and ignores S range hits on a 6. Probably at a discount. It would be maybe 4 points for other nations, but should be about 2 points for American ships. And probably only for tall ships, not for schooners. The only glaring holes in the American's lineup are cheaper extra action crew and a better lineup of treasure runners. Would anyone else be ok with giving them a sac captain or does that just seem out of character for the Americans? I'm honestly not sure about that live wood keyword. It's a neat idea but is there any historical significance beyond 'old ironsides?' I just think that maybe there are more reasonable ways to balance this particular faction out.
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Post by admiralb on Aug 11, 2009 20:05:36 GMT -5
I like the 'action roll with a captain' ability there, vlad. original, but not overpowered...may only need to be like 2-3pts...nicely done and its useful since must extra action ships probably have captains anyway...and giving it to America would be a nice asset for them...they may not have as many unique captains as Pirates or some other factions, but the ones they do have make it count...actually I like both abilities you have there...the first one being slightly more useful, the second being fun if you already have an 'action roller' like Enterprise, Decatur, Stern...(although to get Stern and other necessities on a ship with this new one, would be rather expensive)...Enterprise may see like the only ship that can benefit, but really if done right there are a few others...Thomas Jefferson is a really fun ship to play with, it may not have the same awesomeness as Enterprise, but its great for mind games...do you cancel my "board from S" or my captain? Constitution is obvious because of the points, same with Concordia...Stephens not so much since the captain is built-in. done right even the submarine Mercury can be fun...Haraden, helmsman, "new guy," oarsman...since it has L-range cannons, it can jump you from further away and stay outside cancelling range and get three good hits in and Haraden can reroll one if by some ungodly chance you miss with the rank 1's you now have...the real potential is in using a crew like this with "Crew of any nationality" to get them on something huge like Guichuan, Zeus, or Celtic Fury...pure evil...Delusion, Shui Xian, Baochuan (the unexpected Warlord Cavendish to get Anamaria to get this new guy combo).
Live Wood sounds fun...maybe as equipment? maybe an American crew that allows fun with equipment? hmm...then it might be too similar to my Mirror Shield...hmm...whatever...a bit of the catamaran in there, but who doesn't like rolling die? we need to figure out how much catamaran cost and go from there on the point cost of Live Wood...has potential...if we ever got to Cursed again, they might be able to have a Live Wood ship or two...maybe a sea creature...Swamp Thing! run! I could also see a Pirate ship or two with it...oh, and remember L'Emeraude from MI the French ship covered in moss/seaweed...maybe a remake of that with Live Wood.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 12, 2009 2:35:13 GMT -5
The only glaring holes in the American's lineup are cheaper extra action crew and a better lineup of treasure runners. Would anyone else be ok with giving them a sac captain or does that just seem out of character for the Americans? Unfortunately, America is the only nation in which a sac character doesn't fit in. Tough luck, really. Cheaper extra action crew? Definitely. Treasure runners? I agree they need some, but they don't really fit in too much, I think. They're England to the extreme in a sense, even more fighty-but with even poorer treasure running. Well Ironsides is the most famous example, but didn't all American frigates have it? admiralb-A good way to balance out crew is to make them Loyal to their specific nations. Give this guy a Loyal: America and quickly he becomes balanced. The Spanish sac character I made was absolutely brutal when he was on the Guichuan, but actually quite well balanced when I gave him the Fanatically Loyal keyword. Which is why I like Loyal and Hostile, they prevent a lot of nonsense. But anyway, the crew (if made, that is) is good, no doubt about it. The Constitution with this guy, a captain, and a helmsman is 34 points. Of course it's absolutely cruel, but then it doesn't even have a canceler, or even an extra action. Even then, it still has to deal with the Tiger's Eye and ships like that. The other thing we need to think about is that even though this stuff seems mean, we can balance it out with stuff from other nations so that it ends up good. A couple 'assassination' abilities could make it so that using the crew is still good, but dangerous as it can be picked off at any moment. Hey, finally we get to see these "crew cannot be eliminated" crew get used! Speaking of which, I think that Americans should get some ship or crew with this ability: "If this ship's crew cannot eliminated, she gets +1 to her cannon rolls".
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Post by admiralb on Aug 12, 2009 15:20:56 GMT -5
haha! that's hilarious vlad..."If this ship's crew cannot eliminated, she gets +1 to her cannon rolls." that is sooo America!
maybe one for France too..."If crew of any nationality can use their abilities on this ship, she gets +1 to her cannon rolls." they have so many ships with that ability, most of which are rather poor in the gun department, this would actually help them...plus they have Jordan Dumas so it can work on a ship that may already be good.
well, yeah Connie would have to look out for those "cannot be hit by L-range" but at this point in time, does anyone actually use her without a cancellor, or at least having one riding shotgun on a small little boat alongside (like HMS Rye, Hessian, Lizard)? America does have the most cancellors...BC 'Diamond' Nelson, DJC Hessian, FN USS Kettering, OE Ghost Walker, F&S Lizard...England has 3, Spain has 3, France has 2 (but they're the same person!), Pirates 1, Cursed 1, Mercs 2...so, if you're not playing one you're asking to be spanked...unless you've got some weird strategy like multiple 'Can't be hit by L-range' or 'Can't be shot at within S' or something weird like that.
anyway...the idea of a Fanatically Loyal is interesting...would be a rather large negative in points...probably at least -3...I had a few crew I did in one of my sets that were basically the same...just said "Hostile: non-X" since I really didn't feel like coming up with all new keywords at the time. I think Spain got one, Cursed got one or two...might have been others, can't remember...Spain was a sac captain, and had "On the turn this ship is pinned, eliminate a crew from the enemy ship." he would have been 7, but the "Hostile: non-Spain" reduced him to 4...which was pretty interesting...I played him once on San Cristobal...it was terrifying! easy extra actions for a ship with that kind of speed was crazy! it made it across the 6' table faster than any other ship has besides Whitebeard's Sleigh or using whirlpools...so wrong...
America may not be justified with a SAC crew...but what about a ship? like Loki's Revenge or Diamond Strike? I actually did a new version of the Paul Revere in my last set, after it was cursed by the Eye of Insanity the crew killed each other leaving only her captain, Charles Richard to bear the scars of the journey, the ship is still haunted by Eye's curse...which to me made the ship have Fear and kill a crew for an extra action...it was very interesting and since it linked with Richard, who was a captain and ignored terrain, made for an interesting combo of ship and crew...just get some lackies to kill for extra actions and you've got a very weird way of playing America.
America has never really had any good treasure runners compared to most...I could see them getting like Spain has, bigger treasure ships...to relate, in a way, to the clippers and such. I think Wk may have been trying to do that a bit with the Colonial Trader, but since the ability only worked when it had no crew, the ship never got played...after trade currents and cargo masters though, Colonial Trader may see some play, escort it with something like Franklin, Intrepid, even the sub Mercury and you can have some good ole fashion weird fun! since no one will expect the Trader to be remotely useful.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 12, 2009 18:34:47 GMT -5
How does England have 3 cancelers? That's borderline ridiculous.
Which is why I am officially suggesting that England's power level be toned down a good bit.
I don't think that American should get anything SAC-related, personally.
I'm also sick of seeing everyone get all the stuff that Spain gets. First cancelers, then stuff like the Acorazado, and then stuff that can kill, it, ad nauseam.
America's treasure runners should be like this:
Masts:4 Cargo: 3 Speed: L+L Cannons: 4S 4S 4S 4S Abilities: Schooner, Explorer.
Or something of that sort, to set them apart from Pirates and France who have small speedy runners, and Spain who has the big, hulking slow runners.
By the way, the numbers, at least from Lord Denton, seem to be for each nation/faction:
6 ships, 4 crew.
This means:
1x 5 mast ship 1x 4 mast ship 2x 3 mast ships (1 of each type) 1x 2 mast ship 1x 1 mast ship
1x rare crew 3x Common crew
That's how it should break down, in my opinion at least.
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Post by lord_denton on Aug 12, 2009 19:19:08 GMT -5
By the way, the numbers, at least from Lord Denton, seem to be for each nation/faction: 6 ships, 4 crew. This means: 1x 5 mast ship 1x 4 mast ship 2x 3 mast ships (1 of each type) 1x 2 mast ship 1x 1 mast ship 1x rare crew 3x Common crew That's how it should break down, in my opinion at least. Hey, since when have I become the authority figure of "whatever he says, goes"? I'm just the site admin which requires little outside of not having a life checking the forums regurly ( ) and a basic reading comprehension. All I had to do to get those numbers was divide 52 by 5 (the 5 main factions) and get ten, with a little leftovers to divie up to whoever needs it (or, as Wizkids did it, gave a little to a one-off). Otherwise, yeah. Your numbers look good, Vlad. My only grip might be, too cut costs, too only have one three mast model (the other one requires a new die cut). That, and we can fit, even named characters, two to a card at least. The community makes the set, I just manage the community (and throw in a little common sense). We shall see what the styrene people tell us.
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