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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 2, 2009 20:22:30 GMT -5
So, how about, "Once per turn, if this ship hits with a Chainshot, she may move an S segment."
You'd still have to hit with the chainshot, and this eliminates the smokepot strategy. (For the most part.)
I don't mind giving other nations stuff that is as powerful.
For your Frontier set up, how expensive and inefficient is that though? Sure you can take 4 coins. But for those same points I can have a gunship.
Please, for the sake of my sanity (or what is left), no more Secret Hold suggestions for Spain or any other nation.
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Post by admiralb on Aug 2, 2009 21:33:23 GMT -5
haha...yeah, Frontier setup is inefficient, but basically immortal...yes, but Frontier in that situation can act as a bad gunship too! haha! no one will ever do that though...just saying we need more ways of having fun and interesting ability combinations, and this is just one of them...just for the record that setup is 33pts...7pts left! whoo! Bon Marin + Oarsman...yay! just kidding!
the ability sounds a bit more like Wk...but also very limited in when it can be used...that may be a good thing though because it would make the ability cheaper...not sure though...i suppose you could even have different ones that key off using firepots or stinkpots or killing enemy crew...hmm...
...i think the abilities we're going to be doing will probably be influenced by the set theme, the time period, and all the other stuff that will come into play.
you know what else could be cool..."After this ship resolves a repair action, she may move S." sort of like La Monaraca, but requires a repair instead of load. could be fun...
I also think more abilities that require a certain keyword on board could be cool...since most of the current ones key off Captain and the one that says "If this ship is not assigned a Helmsman crew..." ok, the ability should have been 2pts since for the 2pts I could get a helmsman and stick 'em on board...why was it as expensive as it was? an extra L move 1/2 the time...wouldn't you rather have an extra S move ALL of the time (it is technically faster)?
...wait, we're sane?! haha! just kidding!
...was I going to say more? can't remember...
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 3, 2009 15:47:47 GMT -5
I like having prerequisite abilities, and more of them would be cool. (i.e. this ship gets +L move if she has a captain) and so on.
We could possibly explore that as a theme in this set.
For example:
San Juan Nepomuceno, 19 points, Spanish [Rare] Masts: 5 Cargo: 5 Speed: S+S Cannons: 2S 3L 3L 3L 2S Abilities: This ship gets +1 to her cannon rolls and +S to her base speed if she has a crew with the Captain keyword.
In fact, I'd love to see that as the actual Spanish 5 mast ship. The actual San Juan Nepomuceno fought at Trafalgar, and was renowned for its heroic captain.
It's not nearly as fast as the Cristobal, but packs more of a punch.
:edit:
I'd also like to see a French crew with this ability:
Whenever this ship rolls a 1 for her cannon rolls, you may reroll it once at a -1 to hit.
The French supposedly had really accurate cannons or something along those lines when I was reading up on some stuff, so suffice to say they should have a good amount of rerolling. Very precise, like a scalpel, as opposed to the British who are more of a hammer.
So the British could get:
If this ship has a captain crew, she gains an extra 3S cannon that can fire from any mast. If this ship is derelict, the cannon cannot shoot.
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Post by admiralb on Aug 3, 2009 21:35:17 GMT -5
maybe France needs more stuff that does cool things when their cannons hit...more ships with built-in Chainshot, Stinkpot, and such...plus maybe they need a crew like Hargreaves where you roll 2d6 for each cannon...we just need to make him "Hostile: England" to reduce the cost a bit...maybe a link to a really useful other crew (Arazure, a unique captain, or like the 0LR that chooses a link) or maybe even ALL French ships...that would be pretty sweet. maybe a French "Captain, Extended Range." would be cool...hmm...
England sounds cool...maybe an ability like Double Shot, but only usable if you have a captain and it doesn't blow up in your face since its not an equipment...that way its still only like 2-3pts, but can be pretty devastating when combined with Double Shot itself, Musketeer, and such...English 5-masters could have basically 8 shots that way.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 3, 2009 22:23:06 GMT -5
Yeah, I like that.
For America and Spain there could be a crew where it has, "If this ship has a captain crew, she may ignore the first hit she takes each turn as long as she has all of her masts."
Pirates? Probably move after shooting.
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Post by chasseur85 on Aug 5, 2009 8:11:01 GMT -5
Perhaps another thing we should do is tweak or change the old abilities dedicated for specific countries. Like Cadet Captain Mike said, French ships were more content on destroying the rigging over the hull and crew, so perhaps a chain shot specialist should not only halt the ship for a turn but also eliminates a mast on a roll of 1-3 and forces the ship to stop for a turn on a roll of 4-6 to stimulate the power of a massive barrage of chainshot, forcing the enemy to locate new sails and replace them, or a lucky hit from one removes a mast.
Which brings me to my next thought, which may be well out of place, but I was thinking of UT's like trees, except they have a different effect. For example, there would be an Axe UT that would prevent a ship from being pinned as well as eliminating a crew during the would-be pin. Another one would be sails, which would allow a ship to move regardless of derelict or feared its full base move. My final UT thought would be a "spare mast" UT that would act like trees except that it repaired only one mast and was done as a free action, but before all other free actions.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 5, 2009 12:43:58 GMT -5
I am posting this here as it is better suited. Okay, so this is more like abilities, but I had this FANTASTIC idea for a set of abilities while I was getting to sleep last night. So for example, Captain Blackheart, 3 points, Pirate Captain. You may subtract 4 points from your build total to give this crew "Once per turn, you may eliminate one of this ship's crew to give her an extra action." Hermoine Gold, 3 points, English Captain. You may subtract 5 points from your build total to give this crew "This ship gets +1 to her cannon rolls agains any non-English ship." On the opposite end: John the Cruel Fist, 1 point, Pirate Explorer. You may add 2 points to your build total and give this ship "When this ship's cargo is full her base move is reduced to S" So you're thinking, what the heck is the point of this. The point is, these crew can be fit onto much smaller ships than they normally could, especially Hermoine Gold, for just a small price of 1 extra point. On the other hand, the crew like John the Cruel Fist gives you extra points, but with a bad ability. So it all evens out. @ Chasseur- I like that idea a lot! Your second thought is cool too. I'm actually wondering if they wouldn't be better as equipment. For example, an Axe could be a 1 point equipment that would do what you described, but be a 1 use. Same with a spare mast. For the spare mast, it's cheaper than a shipwright, but if you're doing a lot of fighting a shipwright is still better, but the spare mast has its good sides too. Which of course gives me something, too. Coppered hulls? That's a pretty big deal, too. We should have some sort of event that makes it so that ships start to lose cargo and speed if they don't have a coppered hull. Carronades is a big one, too.
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Post by chasseur85 on Aug 5, 2009 15:02:22 GMT -5
Perhaps it should be called "old age". It may seem offending, but it makes sense. The USS Constitution and many sailing ships of the time often had to be careened and beached, so it should be a massive UT because had it been an event, it would probably be a 30-40 point event. This is its ability:
This token cannot be loaded onto any ship, kraken (Intermardio, that means you), or moved in any way. All ships on the map lose a mast within 5L, 2 masts within 4L, and anything within 3L would lose 3 masts and could not be given a base move except to the nearest wild island, and any fear or eternal keyword is removed from the game. Any ship that is derelict or towed is sunk, and all ships that lost a mast can only be given a move to the nearest wild island. Upon docking roll a d6. That ship cannot be given an action for that many turns due to the massive cleaning of the ship. However afterwards this ship may move L+L+L+L as a free action because the clean-up has allowed the ship to move extremely fast. Once revealed remove this UT from the game.
I consider carronades to be the Equipment version of "Nemo's Plans". What it does is doubles the effect of all Equipment (so instead of forcing that ship to stop for one turn it's two turns, one mast removed and a crew it's two), or if there are no equipment present it becomes a cannon that cannot be eliminated nor cancelled that can only be used when within less than S. When used, it eliminates one of the following: Two crew or two masts due to the high concentration of the blast. Because of this it is worth 5 points because of its good value. The reason it's not higher is because if you roll a 1 both times you get twice as much damage done.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 5, 2009 21:46:48 GMT -5
That's a bit too much for a UT, even for someone like me.
I think that Coppered Hull could just be: This ship's base move cannot be decreased unless she is derelict. This ship gets +S to her base move. The cost would be around 4 points, I think.
As for Carronade: Good idea, but kind of all over the place if you ask me. It could just be a rank 3 cannon that has to be within less than S and that can't have its range increased, and it eliminates a mast and crew when it hits, and in addition it takes up no cargo. Would still be 5 points. Yours would be a bit more, probably 6 I think.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 5, 2009 23:37:16 GMT -5
USS Constellation, 16 points, American Masts: 5 Cargo: 5 Speed: S+S Cannons: 3S 3L 3L 3L 3S Abilities: If this ship has a Captain crew, she gets +S to her base move.
This is pretty brutal, but well costed. Americans need an answer to the undercosted, overpowered San Cristobal and the OE Deliverance, and this is it.
Combined with:
-insert name here-, 6 points, American Abilities: Loyal: America. Captain. Once per turn at the beginning of your turn, roll a d6. On a 5 or 6, this ship may be given the same action twice.
For 24 points (including a helmsman) you have an S+S+S+S moving gunship with the chance for an extra action.
If you ask me, most Americans probably want something besides the Enterprise for a gunship.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 6, 2009 13:15:31 GMT -5
Another random idea that people will hate:
Point costs of 0.5. Why? Unfortunately, the points system we have to work with is incredibly rigid. Had there been a 0.5 cost, we would've seen SAC captains at around 5.5 and captains at 3.5 or something of that sort. We are stuck with under/overcosted crew because of this. How many times has a crew or ship been overcosted a point, but if it had been reduced a point it would've been too good?
Is it ugly? Sure. Most people don't want a 12.5 point cost ship. But it's just a suggestion. And if there become enough of these 0.5 modifiers, they will be just as good. No I'm not advocating 0.25 modifiers!
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Post by admiralb on Aug 6, 2009 13:56:43 GMT -5
The 'Old Age' UT looks insanely powerful...maybe instead of a fixed amount of masts that you lose , the owner has to roll a d6 and subtract it from the number of masts the ship has...that way smaller ships get off lighter and bigger ships lose more...kind of like super one-time reef. also, the coin should not be removed from the game until after all affected ships finish moving. also, maybe, since it is so powerful, force a d6 roll at the very beginning...if you get a 6 then it works on all enemy ships within the measured distance, if you get a 1 the finding ship and all friendly ships within the distance are affected. could be fun! maybe, you could reduce the Carronade's cost by only making it a one-off use...say you use Chainshot and it hits, you then reveal Carronade to double it and then remove it immediately...it'd only be 1pt in that situation, but still has potential...plsu you could leave extras on your HI for when you need them. Vlad...I like your Constellation...I'm guessing the flavor text would have some reference to her nickname "Yankee Racehorse." you could even make it more expensive by giving it the "+S and +1 to he cannons" of course it'd be 19pts then, but maybe lower the cargo to 4, and make the outside cannons the L-range and the inside S...hmm...still 18...yeah, ok...um...leave it as is, America has two world-haters...they can swing the "+1" if they really needed it... ...hey, its 16pts...just enough for the 'god-ship' combo....F&S Mays, BC Diamond Nelson, oarsman, RotF Ralph David, Helmsman...and an extra cargo for someone like Perry. of course no extra action, but isn't that what Lord Mycron is for? Constellation really needs to be made in some form or another...hopefully we can remedy that with our set. the half point thing...I see why, but just don't think the game needs that level of complexity...the game is suppose to be for everyone...some of the younger kids may not have learned decimals yet...(yeah, yeah, I'm annoying and suggesting dumb things, but you know). I don't want to need a calculator everytime I build a fleet...some of our players use them already, adding decimals into the equation makes that calculator more and more necessary...I could see decimals on crew more than ships...but that's just me...usually because a ship is over/undercosted is based on faction...France and Pirate are most obvious...they get some nice stuff for noticeably less than others (Bon Marin vs. Annapolis)...also, have you tried putting a third digit onto a card yet in the point cost area? it gets crowded really easy and you have to reduce the font size to something noticeably smaller than what it is for standard two-digit costs...just starts to look messy and un-professional...although abilities that say something like "If this ship is assigned two crew, you may add 1 point to your fleet build; if it is assigned four crew you may add 2..." just an example and would probably never work, but you get the idea...1/2pt per crew, but worded so it requires you to go by whole numbers. actually I made a UT once that was the actual "Nemo's Plans" for equipment; it was called Leonardo's Journals..."This treasure can’t be removed from this ship unless she sinks. Any equipment aboard this ship that would be removed from the game after it is used remains aboard; it can be reused or continues to function." essentially it's suppose to keep your equipment "alive" (after you roll the 1 for shots or shoot at someone for the Letters that would normally remove it)...and the "can't be removed" is to balance it so you can't go give the Journals to another ship just like "Nemo's Plans." it is powerful, but no more than Nemo's Plans with the right setup...I've used MI's before to deck out the Nautilus with massive amounts of UTs and Nemo's Plans to make the ship near 'god-status.' Cross of Coronado, Runes of Loki, Runes of Thor, Holy Water...after which I then started trading for Sunken Treasures with Slipstream where I had Captain Jack who would then trade Sunken Treasure to another ship near my HI and use Runes of Thor to make the lower d6 for it a guaranteed 6...it was the oly time I've gotten a Sunken Treasure home worth 12 gold! ...anyway, back on topic. I like the idea of the Spare Mast/Trees equipment, one time free repair. What might be cool too, "If this ship is assigned a Shipwright crew, this equipment takes up no cargo space." although ideally that ability would stack, so the Shipwright can carry around as many Spares as you can afford in points. ...also, the Axe would be really only useful against Monsters and Scorpions since those are the only ships that can pin an enemy ship...of course if you're pinning yourself I hope you had an exit strategy to begin with besides an equipment that hasn't been made yet...but it could be cool. "When this ship would be pinned, you may remove this equipment from the game to prevent that." nice cheap way of getting "unstuck." on a sidenote: we need more stuff with this ability: "This ship does not have to roll for effect when she uses a whirlpool."
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Post by chasseur85 on Aug 6, 2009 14:30:40 GMT -5
This idea just struck me: what if we created crew that ship's abilities? Although this will probably be received as "no", it may add some interesting ideas like a crew that says "ramming cannot eliminate this ship's masts", but even that may be banned if it gets on the DJC Le Bonaparte.
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Post by admiralb on Aug 6, 2009 14:54:24 GMT -5
if abilities like "Ramming cannot eliminate this ship's masts" was put on the right crew, flavor wise, it could work...I believe my latest version of Joachin Vega actually has that ability.
...who doesn't want a crew with Extened Range? or "This ship cannot be shot at by ships within S of her"? all it takes is the right crew and flavor text to justify a large number of weird abilities on crew...the "Cannont be shot within S" would be a great 'diplomat' ability, I think I made Ben Franklin once with that ability (he was never released in any of my sets though)..."Cannot be hit by L" would be a great 'deceiver' ability...Blackheart maybe or Jack. Extended Range is great for the cannoneer types like Carbon Charlie, Vazquez, even Crenshaw to a lesser extent.
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Post by vladsimpaler on Aug 6, 2009 18:22:17 GMT -5
Vlad...I like your Constellation...I'm guessing the flavor text would have some reference to her nickname "Yankee Racehorse." you could even make it more expensive by giving it the "+S and +1 to he cannons" of course it'd be 19pts then, but maybe lower the cargo to 4, and make the outside cannons the L-range and the inside S...hmm...still 18...yeah, ok...um...leave it as is, America has two world-haters...they can swing the "+1" if they really needed it... Personally, I'm leaving it as what it is. It's simple, but it works. So then you just don't sink it and leave it derelict, then you tow it. Not really that broken. Well it's not really -our- set, but that's the whole reason why I posted the one above. I think that you are vastly underestimating how kids are. Trust me, they're not stupid. The addition of .5 won't make anything needlessly complex, but it will actually free up design space because now you can make something that isn't really 5 but too powerful at 4. Though if you want to make it better, it should really be 1/2 point rather than .5, however that just fits better. I'm not going to argue any further for this, but I'd like to see Woelf have his input on this matter. Captains- 3 1/2 points. Too expensive at 4, a bit too good at 3. Problem solved.
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