A New nation(maybe), what would it be?

[lord_denton]

But, what can we do with the Pirates, Engalnd, France, Spain and America? Unless we add something so new that it flips the game around, what can we do with the Big Five?

[omegatraf]

Totally on board with the no new faction untill we've pumped out one small regular expansion to fill holes not yet filled.

"Stand back, There's no telling how big this will get!"

[chasseur85]

I don't really have a favorite, but in my opinion it would be nice to see a new faction, but like Vlad said maybe we should shoot for the minors before we dig an extremely large that's hard to get out of. Perhaps, UNDERLINE, perhaps what we could do is we could start like the Spanish Main, add no new factions (I consider the original three not new) and then later start growing good roots and add the Dutch and Such. I personally prefer adding a new nation, but if saving money and space is mandatory, it may be a good idea to start small, then grow large.

[vladsimpaler]

Jul 29, 2009 14:30:51 GMT -5 lord_denton said:

But, what can we do with the Pirates, England, France, Spain and America? Unless we add something so new that it flips the game around, what can we do with the Big Five?

Do what you said, fill in holes.

What I believe that we should do in this set is really try to cement each of the nation's roles:

Pirates: Poor ships, good crew, treasure running, very swarmy
French: Much like Pirates but European, have equal focus on fighting and treasure
English: Mostly fighting focused, but do have some emphasis on gold
Spain: Combo-oriented, very jack of all trades. More focused on gold, but can fight well if it boils down to it. I'm not being biased when I say that this is the most complex faction.
America Very gung-ho, get in your face. I would argue that America is more fighty than the English, just in terms of ships. Almost no gold grabbing capabilities to speak of.


Pirates don't need much, to be honest. They've always been the most powerful. I would explore a new direction for them, one more along the line of Privateers and gold-runners.

French don't need much either, I am not an expert in the French so I'd need some suggestions from Danomight.

English need some cheaper stuff, period, but still with an emphasis on the larger ships.

Spain needs, in my opinion, stuff that isn't that good unless you combo it. None of their ships (sans the Cristobal and a few others) are really stars unless you combo stuff. The sac captain I designed for instance is very expensive, but if you know what to do, it will perform admirably. A single mistake makes it borderline terrible. Sorry, trying not to show bias but it's failing terribly.

America just needs better crew. Ship wise they are passable, but their Achilles Heel is their terrible (yes, terrible) crew selection. They have 2 crew with the Eternal keyword, more crew that make your crew immune to being killed than I count with on my hands, but nothing that could help them in a typical game. These guys are more troubled than the Spanish and you have to be good to be able to win with these guys. Playing the Americans is akin to the Spanish of old in that you play with one hand tied behind your back.

Should this set be more America centric? No, but just giving them some passable crew will alleviate the problem.

Personally, for the first 3, just give them more stuff to solidify their role in game.

America needs stuff to help it solidify its role in the game while actually being playable, Spain is somewhere inbetween.

Just my opinion.

[lord_denton]

Right. A new nation seems like another big hole that we can simply bypass, without causing too much of a catfight that other big holes repersent.

So, our objective for the first set is to make the nations more playable in their own respect. Not necessarily balancing them out, as they takes away from the unique flavor one has when choosing a nation.

We shall make something that has always been repersented in Naval and Maritime history (And, how Vlad has suggested in the form of the Spanish Sac-Captain): Compromises.

The only thing is, we would have to find someone that repersented the personality of the Spanish Sac-Captain in history.

[vladsimpaler]

Jul 29, 2009 20:56:47 GMT -5 lord_denton said:

The only thing is, we would have to find someone that repersented the personality of the Spanish Sac-Captain in history.

Hernando Cortez is the only person that I can think of who would fit the role, but then this historical set would then be across all of the Age of Sail as opposed to a certain era.

If need be, the Spanish Sac Captain can wait.

[admiralb]

in a loose way, even Columbus could be a 'killer' crew for Spain, IF done right...he was accussed of cruelty while governing in the Caribbean...of course the charges were dropped by King Ferdinand, but who knows...we'd all like to see him done differently than that wouldn't we? more the explorer type, maybe some 'money-grubbing' Dominic Freda-type.

Also, one of my personal sets had one "Francisco de Toledo" who worked the native 'slaves' to death in the Spanish silver mines (yes, he is based on historical events; check the Wiki for actual time period, I wasn't paying much attention during the making of the set it was more fictional/fantasy based; Spain was really the only historical stuff in the set). I combo'd the "Eliminate a crew for an extra action" with "Coins with a silver printed number are worth +1." It sounds like an insane combo, but on the right ship, it could be awesome. The game is called Pirates, we should be 'killing for cash,' right?

even the ability by itself, like Mercer, could help Spain significantly. I know England got a decent boost after Mercer was introduced.

Cortez could be cool, not sure he'd be a Captain though...his major achievements were on land...maybe a Marine that kills for extra actions? interesting combo, wouldn't you say? Spain needs more interesting combos...I like the F&S Montana Mays because of the unique ability combo...Spain may be able to benefit from something done in a similar way, but uniquely Spain.

[woelf]

Jul 29, 2009 22:00:40 GMT -5 admiralb said:

...maybe a Marine that kills for extra actions? interesting combo, wouldn't you say?

Interesting indeed.

That'd be worth about 9 points, I'd say.

[vladsimpaler]

Wait, would it be like, "Whenever this crew scores a hit, this ship gets an extra action"?

Or when he's on land, "Once per turn, when this crew scores a hit, it may fire again".

Or both.

Another cool thing would be, "All Spanish Musketeers are Marines." But we'll figure it all out during testing.

That would be pretty brutal. But I like it! The Spanish SAC crew can wait for a not so historical set, I think. : )

[admiralb]

True, 9pts sounds about right...we could always make him Loyal: Spain and Hostile to something to drop it to 8pts...maybe...meh...just saying. interesting combos make interesting cards...Marine has never been combo'd with anything other than "This crew gets +1 against X."

Right now, I'm trying to make my own 'Age of Exploration' set...and Ponce de Leon is a Marine with "This ship's crew cannot be eliminated unless the ship sinks." I made him 7pts, based on the cheapest pricing of the ability: Decatur...who really only pays 2pts for that ability...Spain needs more 'deals' in crew costing...plus his ship(s) weren't terribly expensive in my costing, so I didn't want him being too hig priced and unusable on his own ship like Benito DeSoto (and almost Dragon Eyes...yeah, 10pt crew with an 11pt ship...hmm...I get an Oarsman too!).

whatever...when we get more stuff settled (like set theme, time period, etc.) we should all submit ideas and then maybe vote on our favorites...maybe...just a suggestion.


...now on to America...hmm...they need either a Captain, Helmsman combo OR a cheap SAT roller OR another cancellor crew-wise...ships...um...cheap, fast small ships...they are practically the gods of schooners it seems like...maybe make more 2-mast schooners for them, but actually good like La Monarca or Raven...but uniquely American...maybe a patrol ship with rare Jack Sparrow's ability (Move action after loading last treasure) or something like it. They could also use some more ships with BAD abilities...yes, I said it...like "Sinks when her last mast is eliminated" (or as I like to think "the captain goes down with the ship" or "the captain refuses to let the enemy capture his ship"...yeah, think of them not wanting the Corsairs to get their hands on their warships so they burn them up)...oh yeah...America needs another Marine too...England and France each got a 5pt Hostile one...America could use one too...maybe he links with all American ships...I do like the Link with all ships of said nation...we need some more of that too...



Well, I had thought of that ability too vlad, but what I was thinking for Francisco was more like just the regular kill a crew for an extra action...the ability you're thinking of I had given a new version of Blackheart "Once per turn, when this ship kills an enemy crew, you may give this ship an extra action." of course Blackheart's ship had to haev the ability "When this ship is pinned, eliminate a crew from the opposing ship." and just for good measure "Once per turn, when this ship hits and enemy ship, also eliminate a crew." it was a riduculous combo and would have been really fun to try out, but I decided it may have been too powerful...even more so when you had support crew like Tia Dalhma, Wesley, Diabolito...

[vladsimpaler]

Why not an American Captain with an ability such as,

"When this ship would be sunk or scuttled, place all crew and treasure (besides this one) on the nearest wild island. Eliminate this crew."

But now we've taken over this thread. I'll go make a new one.

[admiralb]

haha...good idea vlad with the new thread

...but your idea is basically a built-in Raft...plus why would I use that when I can get Eternal which is probably more powerful and only 2pts?

[vladsimpaler]

If I could, I would ban Eternal from any non Cursed ship. It's simply too powerful.

Anyway, if you would like to continue this discussion, please report to: custompirate.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=19&page=1

[cleverpun]

Jul 29, 2009 8:40:45 GMT -5 lord_denton said:

.Why does this matter? The Russians had a good crack at a navy during the age of sail. What does WWII have to do with anything?

Sorry, WWII has just sort of become the benchmark for matters like military power in the modern era (if you had a good military then, you likely have one now).

Of course I forgot that this game is rather far removed from the modern era ;D.

woelf does indeed make poignant arguments. Perhaps the idea of a new nation is something to be saved for a later set.

I still like the idea of Scottish crew and the Loch Ness monster, though. May be put it in the pirate or English faction?

That may be a way to keep things fresh - don't just beef up the weaker nations, but explore some new territory with the other ones. The pacific islanders of SS are another example of how it could be done. And aside from Scotland as part of England, or the Pacific Islands, how about more Canadian pieces as part of France? (I recall a french-Canadian crew in PoR...).

We don't need to do a whole new nation to tread new ground, after all. Not to repeat myself, but that was one of the points of SS.

[admiralb]

grrr...I had a whole thing here then my Internet connection screwed up...anyway...to summarize:

Ned Lands in MI...Canadian, but French faction...good idea...need more.

Loch Ness Monster should be Merc! seems fairly "factionless" although Lusca is Scottish/Irish...so maybe English is the way to go...I still prefer Mercs...seems more threatening that way Don't forget Eileen Brigid O'Brien is Irish and Merc!

Ex-patriots could help any new faction we decided to add plus they help all those "one-shot" factions we all knew and loved...the keyword needs more exploration...I like getting +1 to my MI rolls...