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Post by vladsimpaler on Sept 13, 2009 12:08:42 GMT -5
So to preface I play a lot of miniature games.
And boarding to me is super boring.
And yes, this would slow down the game.
What would people think if boarding was turned into a little separate game?
Like each side turned their crew into a heroclix figure or something, and then the 2 sides duked it out, and whenever a figure died that crew chit was removed from that ship?
Would make boarding a lot more interesting, I think.
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Post by marhawkman on Sept 13, 2009 13:32:34 GMT -5
Way too hard to actually use. Interesting? yes. But not really practical.
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Post by lord_denton on Sept 13, 2009 17:00:50 GMT -5
Boarding is the most neglected part of the game I think, and also the most boring. Coincidence? Maybe not...
You could also use Attac-tix figures, and this would make more sense (although I'm not used to Heroclix) because there is ranged attacks as well as melee attacks, and because boarding should be more hands-on and action packed, oppossed to rolling dice.
Although I think the current boarding mechanic suffices, its not broken outside of usability (the cost of boarding bonus's as well as the strange logic that "Hey Jim, there is this little dinky strongbox in the Captain's cabin, and there is also this large treasure chest, which do we take?").
The game repersents crew numbers by the more mast damaged, the more crew killed. Masts repaired, crew recruited (although that doesn't make sense in the middle of the ocean.
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Post by woelf on Sept 13, 2009 17:59:45 GMT -5
Adding an entire extra miniatures game might be going a little too far, but your idea of a small "mini-game" has some potential.
Instead of having just a single die roll to determine the winner, each player could start with a certain number* of "boarding tokens" and then they'd have a series of back and forth die rolls until one player ran out of tokens. You could use a system similar to the existing boarding actions where both players roll at the same time, and the player with the lower roll would lose a token. You could then come up with all sorts of ability bonuses like rerolls, boosts to individual rolls, rolling two dice at once, etc.
If you've ever played Sir Meier's Pirates!, think of it as something like the sword-fight mini-game you get when trying to take over another ship.
*The number of tokens a ship gets could be based on numerous factors like size of the ship, the number of named or generic crew onboard, and even bonus abilities (+1 boarding, etc.)
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Post by marhawkman on Sept 13, 2009 18:11:36 GMT -5
Hunh... Now that idea has promise.
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Post by Swift Nic on Sept 15, 2009 11:14:11 GMT -5
Ooh! now you've fired up my wargaming brain cell. Off the top of my head and harking back to Hordes of the Things... Assuming that each Crew token represents a number of crewmen aboard the ship. i.e. A Captain is not just one chap with a bit of gold braid on his hat, but a whole regime and command structure from the officers down to the gun crews. Each ship in a boarding action gets one 'Sailor' token for each mast remaining. (Sailors attached to lost or burning masts are too busy, stunned or disorganised to take an active part in the boarding action.) Each ship also get one crew token for each generic crew aboard. Use face up crew tokens for generic crew, use face down crew tokens for Sailors. Named crew can act as a generic crew token if they have that keyword or ability, if they have two or more generic crew keywords they can act as either crew keyword at their owners choice. [ If named crew do not have a generic crew keyword; they attach to one generic crew or sailor and may use an ability / dice modifier with that crew or ship. Not sure how to cover named crew abilities] Sea monsters attempting to board a ship count each segment as 1 crew Sailors each add +1 to the boarding roll. Generic Crew add their point cost to the boarding roll. Named crew don't add to the roll unless they have an ability specific to boarding actions. If the ship has an ability that gives it boarding bonuses they are added in too. e.g. +2 vs sea monsters. Both ships roll a D6 and add their DM's. If both ships totals are equal; | both ships lose a crew token. | If the defender's total is higher than the attackers. | The attacker is forced back to their ship and lose one crew token. The defender has repelled boarders and may attempt to board the enemy ship in their turn. | If the attacker's total is higher than the defenders, | the defender loses one crew token for each point difference in the score. Boarding continues in the next round. | If the attacker's total is at least twice the defenders total; | the defender surrenders their ship. The boarding action finishes. | If the defender's total is at least twice the attackers total, | the attacker loses two crew tokens. The defender has repelled boarders and may attempt to board the enemy ship in their turn. |
When either side have lost all their crew tokens, their ship is captured.When a ship surrenders, the attacker can loot or sink it as they wish. If you want to sail it back to your home island you have to keep at least one of your own crew aboard it. The original crew are now prisoners unless you make 'em walk the plank.... A ship with a prize crew aboard can only be given move actions. If it is boarded again only the prize crew count for it's defence. Once back at your home island the ship becomes part of your fleet or you can sell it... How about that ? If you wanted to make it more skirmishy, you could fight it out between individual crew tokens and moves between ships / deck areas. Nic
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Post by ding73ding on Sept 15, 2009 13:08:25 GMT -5
Anyone remember "Ancient Arts of War at Sea"? I played it back on the Apple ][+ my first computer. That game is still the perfect naval game as far as I am concerned! Boarding was so much fun. With some ships or against some AI-captains one would try to avoid the fire fight and sneak in for a man-to-man attack. There were 3 crew types, can't remember the names... something like cutlass, muskets and officers? Officers beat cutlass, cutlass beat muskets and musket beat officers... something like that. It's probably too involved to add to Pirates... imagine adding 5-15 minutes to each boarding battle. But heh your topic has the word random in it, so I feel unguilty
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Riz
Master & Commander
As bloody as I wanna be!
Posts: 55
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Post by Riz on Sept 15, 2009 14:25:17 GMT -5
Boarding may be super simplistic, but then again so is the rest of the rules for this game. It's a beer and pretzels game me boyos. Meant to be played for fun, not as an accurate represntation of naval combat.
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Post by Commodore Vendari on Sept 15, 2009 16:47:15 GMT -5
Boarding may be super simplistic, but then again so is the rest of the rules for this game. It's a beer and pretzels game me boyos. Meant to be played for fun, not as an accurate represntation of naval combat. Still, it's a great idea, especially for campaigns.
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Post by Swift Nic on Sept 16, 2009 3:35:39 GMT -5
From a historic point of view, Boarding is decisive. You might sink a ship with cannon fire, but if you want to capture it then you have to board it.
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Post by Commodore Vendari on Sept 19, 2009 0:52:57 GMT -5
From a historic point of view, Boarding is decisive. You might sink a ship with cannon fire, but if you want to capture it then you have to board it. I've been searching around for a decent set of campaign rules. In one of them, you had to board a derelict before capturing it. It's a really good aspect.
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Post by Swift Nic on Sept 21, 2009 10:57:05 GMT -5
My boarding rules might be better suited to shipboard skirmishing between crew. I do feel Pirates ought to be more about boarding, robbing and capturing ships than just wrecking and sinking them. How's all this gold get on the wild islands in the first place ? We need wealthy merchants to rob!
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Post by cannonfury on Sept 21, 2009 19:24:19 GMT -5
well the gold got there because the natives on that island had the gold already, much like the Spaniards had treasure fleets moving gold from the Americas (which they stole from the natives, poor guys) back to spain, so i guess that answers your question of where the gold comes from. and if you really wanted to be historically accurate, then all pirate ships would have to be one masted except for one or two pirates who got lucky, the spaniards would have massive advantages over everyone else, the english and french would be small vessels such as 3 down to represent there privatering ways back then (such as Drake) and the americans would be severly underdevloped and be confined to schooners and other such ships, with a few frigates to compose there little navy.
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Post by Swift Nic on Sept 23, 2009 5:09:45 GMT -5
well the gold got there because the natives on that island had the gold already, much like the Spaniards had treasure fleets moving gold from the Americas (which they stole from the natives, poor guys) back to spain, so i guess that answers your question of where the gold comes from. and if you really wanted to be historically accurate, then all pirate ships would have to be one masted except for one or two pirates who got lucky, the spaniards would have massive advantages over everyone else, the english and french would be small vessels such as 3 down to represent there privatering ways back then (such as Drake) and the americans would be severly underdevloped and be confined to schooners and other such ships, with a few frigates to compose there little navy. I thought the gold was all in South and Central America. The Caribbean islands were a staging post for voyages to or from Europe. The Caribbean's wealth came from exporting sugar, spices and cotton. The history might well be right for the earliest sets e.g POSM. Not long after the discovery and exploitation of the Americas was when cannons really came to dominate naval warfare. By the time America is an independent nation, the scenario has changed completely.I'm not trying to create a historical simulation, but I do like game units to behave in a realistic manner. Within the context of this thread, I want an option to capture ships by boarding without having to derelict them first. Back on topic:If two or more ships (on the same side) attempt to board one ship in the same action, should their masts and DM's be totaled and added to a single roll ?
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Post by woelf on Sept 23, 2009 10:05:58 GMT -5
I'm not trying to create a historical simulation, but I do like game units to behave in a realistic manner. Within the context of this thread, I want an option to capture ships by boarding without having to derelict them first. Capture by boarding is a case where realism is most likely going to have to take a backseat to game balance. As soon as you add the option to capture non-derelict ships, it's going to really throw things off unless you make it really difficult to do and/or make it into a expensive ability (much moreso than the Harbinger's ability). If it is in any way based on the number of masts or crew on a ship, even with a die roll involved, it's going to make the larger ships (especially 10-masters) even more powerful than they already are. If you base it solely on die rolls, it'll be far too luck-based and you could see single-masted ships capturing fully intact 10-mast ships, which is even less realistic than requiring a ship to be derelicted first. The real trick will be to find a good middle ground. Keep some luck so it's not always going to in favor of the big ships, but not so much that it's completely random or rewards lucky insanity. You also have to make sure it's not so easy to do or so game-breaking that it becomes the dominant tactic in the game. Short of redesigning the entire game, I don't know if that's even going to be possible. That would create a lot of nasty timing issues when you start to factor in things like ramming, captains, S-boarders, and the various abilities that have added effects when you win/lose a boarding action. It could also make it too easy to guarantee a win in every boarding action as long as you had an extra ship or two nearby. If you're going to give the attacker the potential to gain huge bonuses like that, you'll need to give something to the defenders too to keep it somewhat fair.
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